www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West What Do Latins Like About The East , And Vice Versa.

sorry for the double send!

What a beautiful, balanced study of the jewel that is God's Churches!

Thank you, Ray.

Steve

Dear Ray,

THAT was absolutely beautiful. Especially your answer from God!!! AWESOME!

May God bless you always with His inspiration,
Alice

What do I, as a "Latin," like about the Christian East?

1. The mystical dimension of life. The Christian East actually acknowledges the mystical dimension of life; in the West, it is often denied or viewed with fear. The Christian East also teaches how to develop the mystical side of life in a sane and balanced way, within the Gospel, for everyone: and not just for a few spiritual experts.

2. The Holy Spirit For the first time in my life, I feel like I am beginning to learn something about the Holy Spirit -- thanks to the Eastern Christians. Before, I knew He is a member of the Trinity, and what is said in the Creed every Sunday, but I had little understanding or appreciation of Him beyond that. By the way, I tend to agree with the Easterners on the filioque issue precisely because of the effects. In the East, the Holy Spirit is appreciated and understood. In the West, the Holy Spirit isn't mentioned much (except among some Pentecostals and Charismatics), and He really isn't understood very deeply. So, I�m very grateful to the Christian East for teaching me something about the Holy Spirit.

3. Theosis I never really learned about theosis in the Christian West. Yes, the West teaches to live in union with Jesus, but that is usually in a personal or sacramental way. And that is very good. But, it rather leaves out the Father and the Holy Spirit. And, it gives a somewhat incomplete idea of Christian living here. We are supposed to regard the neighbor as another Christ; that is very clearly taught in the West. But how? Spiritually? And what does that mean? And, what is the whole point? Etc. These questions are not very fully answered in the Christian West beyond "Jesus wants to save you from sin and hell, staring now and foretasting forever." That is tremendous Good News, but it is also, well, somehow incomplete. The Eastern idea of theosis seems to provide a fuller explanation for the purpose of life, here and hereafter, and hence how to live the Gospel.

4. Icons. As art, icons are interesting: sometimes moving, sometimes boring, but always interesting. However, as a spiritual concept, icons are tremendous. The idea that we are to become living windows of the living God, in imitation of Jesus, speaks very powerfully to me.

Overall, I like the Christian East for its spirituality. (Yes, the liturgy is beautiful -- but so too is the current Roman Catholic Mass. They are different, but the same Eucharist is there.) That is because for me, personally, I did not find a way to be spiritual within the Western forms of Christianity. I needed something more than praying the Rosary; I needed an entire system for seeing the Gospel and all of life in a spiritual way. That is just my personal need, because I have a spiritual streak in me (sinner that I am). Hence, I was mightily pleased, and amazed, and grateful, when I found what I was looking for in the Christian East.

Thanks for letting me share in it !

--John

REAL CANDLES and PHYSICAL DEVOTION.

My maternal great grandparents and grandmother were Russian Orthodox. I was raised Roman Catholic and I was tiring of the abuses of the Vatican II Church so I decided to get back in touch with my roots. I brought my children of course. So let's look through the eyes of a child.

Real Candles....the kids flipped out...no more drop a dime in and watch the light come on...light a real candle became a spiritual act that was real and tangible.

Same with icons...they loved learning how properly venerate them...a physicality of devotion that is lost in the Novus Ordo Church.

After returning to Roman Catholic services my kids said, "that's it?"

That was just a brief sketch of what we love. I think this family is well on it's way to Byzantium.

Warm regards.

Welcome to the forum. Hope you are on your way to making this forum a home too.

May God grant you and your family many years of peace, health, and happiness as you explore and learn about the faith of your fathers.

Pani Rose

Dear John,

Interesting that you should mention the "Holy Spirit."

I became more focused on my own Byzantine tradition after doing a study involving Catholic Pentecostals or Charismatics.

That experience awakened me to the role of the Holy Spirit - and that led me to the Eastern Churches where I shed my Latinized ways (except the rosary, scapular, stations of the cross . . . )

I tell people that those devotions were first started in the East!

Alex

I thought to try to add something, but what I love about the Christian East has already been well documented by others far more eloquent than myself.

Dear Friends,

Ray's post was indeed most beautiful!

The various Eastern Catholic Churches, however, are only in recent decades beginning to fully rediscover themselves.

The idea of a multi-liturgical edifice united around Rome is also a contemporary notion - Orthodox and Catholic theologians have, in fact, formally condemned historic "uniatism."

We all agree that the Church, East and West should be united in accordance to mutually agreeable paradigms of unity.

In addition, the various EC Churches that are around also have their own issues with Rome that will need to be addressed separately in the ecumenical process.

It is that process and its current character that puts the full-flowering of the EC Churches on hold in a number of ways.

I would also suggest that the view of the Church that Ray has presented, beautiful though it is, is an ideal that we have not yet realized.

Alex

Most of what I like about the Eastern Catholic Churches - based on my admittedly very limited exposure is purely subjective.

#1 - I love the iconic art. The first time I saw icons, in shops in Tarpon Springs, FL (a pretty thriving Greek community) I thought, "Huh? Aren't those interesting." But seeing them in their proper context during the Divine Liturgy they are a very moving art form that forces one to focus not so much on the physical beauty of the object or talent of the artist as the spiritual beauty of the subject.

For instance, my favourite sculpture is Michaelangelo's "Pieta". But I am so often awed by the beauty of the object and amazed by the talent of the sculptor that I forget what it is that I am really looking at.

Iconic art has a way of drawing my attention beyond the physical and toward the spiritual.

#2 - The symbolic meaning of the Iconostatis. Especially since I live in an area where 98% of the Catholic parishes are newly built with no truly discernable boundary between the Sanctuary and the Nave. The physical boundary between the Sanctuary and the Nave is to me transcendent in its beauty and its meaning. Again drawing my attention more toward God.

#3 - The use of incense. None of the Latin parishes I've attended use incense, except on certain Holy Days of Obligation and some exceptional feast days.

#4 - The timelessness and beauty of the Divine Liturgy itself. I am not a big fan of much of the music used in many Novus Ordo Masses. It is a personal prference I admit. But I love the fact that the Divine Liturgy doesn't include the use of Contemporary Christian Music.

#5 - The fact that for some reason my mind wanders less during the Divine Liturgy than in the Novus Ordo Mass.

Again this is subjective and completely personal. But I find the number of things that seem to happen at once in the Novus Ordo Missae to be confusing and distracting. Like there are too many people in motion.

My daughter is also better behaved during the Divine Liturgy. I believe because she too is less distracted.

#6 - That the Sign of the Cross is made every time the Holy Trinity is mention.

#7 - The number of times the Mother of God is praised.

#8 - That receiving the Holy Eucharist in the hand is not even an option. But again this is strictly a matter of personal preference.

I know that almost all of these are subjective and they aren't anything "concrete" but these things I love because they enrich my spiritual life. They draw me closer to God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They lift my attention toward Heaven.

I truly believe that if I had known about the Eastern Churches before I converted that I would now be an Eastern Catholic and not a Roman Catholic.

Too bad I didn't take more time to find out about all of this a few years ago.

Ray, I am always overjoyed to meet someone who can really breathe with both lungs. Many blessed years.

"Too bad I didn't take more time to find out about all of this a few years ago."

Dear Carole,

Yes, but you are finding out about it now! If you are more spiritually motivated by what you have found in the Eastern Church, then by all means pursue it. Your conversion to the Roman Church does not mean your faith journey ends there. Moving to a different church tradition is not something you must decide overnight. Over time your heart will tell you what you want to do and where you want to go. You have taken the first big step by entering one of the apostolic churches, now enjoy the journey and find which one you would like to call home.

In Christ, Bill

You make excellent points, Bill.

It is just that I have heard that it is difficult (if not nearly impossible in some places) to receive dispensation for a Roman Catholic to become an Eastern Catholic.

But the more I learn about the Eastern Churches and their traditions the more I am convinced that if I had but known then what I know now I would have chosen the Eastern spirituality from the beginning.

But I also know that God has a plan for me and I am learning about things in the order of His choosing.

Carole --

I was confirmed in the Roman Catholic Church in graduate school (having been baptized in the Lutheran Church in college). Ten or twelve years later, my husband (whom I met at the local Roman parish) and I switched rites to the Melkite church. We did this only after having worshipped at our new parish for a few years, only after talking at length with our spiritual advisers about our decision. It really is not very hard to do, but it also is not something that one should do in haste.

Blessings on your journey,
-- Penthaetria

I haven't yet read the other replies, figuring I'd like to give my own fresh thoughts prior to looking at everyone elses.

What do I like about the "Byzantine Rite" over the "Roman Rite"?

- greater amount of public prayer (i.e. liturgy in the technical sense). In the Latin Church, it's basically the Mass every day and the remainder is private (not that I object).

In the Byzantine parish I've been attending for the past year, there's Vespers Saturday evening, Orthros in the morning and the Divine Liturgy on Sunday. Now that' we're in the Great Lent there's LotPSG, Vespers, Great Compline, the Akathist, or Divine Liturgy EVERY day of the week.

It is true that it is entirely possible to have a public Vespers and Matins in a Latin Parish. Were I to stay Roman Rite, I would volunteer to help implement this. It's extremely uncommon, though. I know precisely one Parish out of the hundred or so I've visited that has any sort of regular Ve

- stronger focus on the Psalms, Bible, lives of Saints, etc. in the liturgy as a whole . In the Roman Mass of either the 1962 or 1970, there's a Collect, a reading (two in the 1970 Missal), the Gospel (two in the 1962 missal), the Preface, the Responsorial Psalm (1970 Missal) and finally the optional chanted/sung Propers, and finally the homily which address these issues. Beyond these, the Mass is fairly fixed.

In contrast, these kind of references are everywhere in the Byzantine liturgy. One Vespers I went to was effectively a catechesis on the Council of Nicea. The only way you'd get that in the Latin Rite is if the priest said an extra-long homily.

- a stronger historical, especially patristic focus This is something I like very much about the Byzantine Church. At the parish and dicoese level, the theology, devotions and reference of the Latin Church (at least in the Diocese I have been in) are, beyond the Bible, very much focused on recent events and theological concepts (generally the 1800s at the earliest). Not so in the Byzantine Church.


Things that I would miss if I the Latin rite suddenly disappeared tommorrow:

- the Roman Canon. For whatever reason, I really like this prayer (even though I've only "heard" it in the very interpretive English translation).

- Kneeling

- Credo III - yes it's really a "baroque" piece and not really Gregorian Chant, but still it's easily the catchiest musical setting of the Creed.

- Gregorian Chant - Fortunately however, I think the Roman and Greek Churches are equal in terms of music. Gregorian Chant and Byznatine Chant are good "foils" to each other. Renaissance polyphony finds its match in 19th century Russian (hah) polyphony. And fortunately, the Byzantine Church never fell in love with the 70s and its so-to-call-it "folk" music.

(for those that miss Gregorian Chant at their parish - why not find a priest who would support chant, go learn how to chant and start singing on Sundays!!).

Marc