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Earlier today I was reflecting on the Gospel line: "Learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart." (It's hard to be meek in today's work-a-day world and not get crushed.)

Then after meditating and praying on "meek and humble of heart" I read in this thread: ""...all the faithful of Christ must believe 'that the Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world', and that the Pontiff of Rome himself is the successor of blessed Peter, the chief of the Apostles, and is the true Vicar of Christ and head of the whole Church and Faith, teacher of all Christians...this is the doctrine of Catholic truth from which no one can deviate and keep HIS FAITH AND SALVATION..."(Dogmatic constitution on the Church, Vatican I, 1870).

I think some 19th century clerics were in need of a good dose of salts. They were so caught up in the dying gasps of European monarchy ("Princes of the Church"), that they tried to institutionalize it in the Church.

Today, I think we need to forgive them their arrogance, ask forgiveness for the times we ourselves get 'uppity', and go about the Lord's business of love of God and neighbor, and serve each other with astonishing, jaw-dropping kindness and care.

Blessings to All!

Dear Dr. John,

Well put, well put, bravo!

And I believe the best way that what you said can be implemented as a reality, at least from the Orthodox point of view, is when the Pope joins with the Orthodox as equals in a Union Council, agreeing to be bound by its lawful canons.

D'ya think?

Happy Old Calendar St Michael's Day!

Alex

I have a problem with this wholesale chucking of pre-Vatican II Magisterium or even Vatican II Magisterium in favor of theological opinions. I mean explain to me, in regard to the union of the Catholics with Orthodox, how can Rome recant of the very blatant and ultramontane statements of previous Popes and even their re-iteration by Cardinal Ratzinger in "The Lord Jesus".

Here is an answer a Byzantine Catholic online friend gave once: check the writings of Cardinal Ratzinger. Years ago he said that in a reunion the Orthodox wouldn't be forced to change anything to conform to postschism Roman practices or formulations. He has never retracted that. And now, he is head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. An impressive backing for what you understandably perceive as an apparent contradiction that runs the danger of turning into indifferentism.

Hope that helps. I haven't got a link to the relevant Ratzinger quotation but a little Web surfing should turn up something.

This friend takes Ratzinger as a starting point to ask, since Catholicism is telling the Orthodox they won't be treated like "Uniates', why are Byzantine Catholics treated like that?

http://oldworldrus.com

Good question, Serge.

The issue is two fold. One aspect is that the Roman bureaucracy (and its minions) seems to regard themselves as the ultimate authority to make decisions for absolutely everybody. How we disabuse them of this mindset is a serious problem. The easist way would be to vaporize all those bureaucratic entities, but bureaucracies' primary job is to ensure their survival. And they won't go quietly.

Second, the Byzantine Catholics need to do what we need to do -- and not wait around for the official papers authorizing this, that or the other thing. Being in communion with the Holy Father is one thing; being an un-emancipated child is not part of the deal. We need to entice our bishops to be their own men and we need to support them unflinchingly in their efforts to minister to the people in the way that our tradition mandates.

Blessings!

I've been reading posts on this forum for quite some time and have found it very educational not to mention encouraging at times. I am an RC who prays regularly for reunion. I have a friend who is Orthodox and we speak whimsically of the day when we can visit each other's churches and receive communion. As an RC I have always thought it best not to post as this forum is created for Byzantines. But it seems to me that Robert is asking something that is quite fair. Infallibility is a reality and I don't understand how it can be dealt with without one side making a serious concession. Some times when I read this forum I feel like papal infallibility is the big pink elephant in the room that no one wants to acknowledge. I am aware of Ratzinger's optimism on the subject I just don't see where he is coming from. We can all agree that greater collegiality is needed and less centralization from Rome. But that doesn't make Vatican I go away. I'd be eager to hear the thoughts of others.

-Mark

PS- I don't want to make things more divisive than they are but sometimes, just to know where someone is coming from, it would be helpful for posters to identify themselves as either Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholic.

Slava Isusu Christu!

I was really thinking today after morning liturgy what Christ must have felt over the Schisms in His Church. I had never really thought to ask God how He felt over all of this. He must really be in such pain over His Church. I mean essentially the purpose of the Church is to save the souls of mankind, right? Things like politics and all that probably don't concern Him based on His Character in the Scriptures. And I have to think that 1054 and the various other schisms were based on ignorance and misunderstanding.

So the role of our various Churches is to clean up the mess of previous generations. I mean when it comes down to brass tax all we need to do is save our souls and make our journey of theosis. I had to take some of my own advice and pray. And it seems that prayer is the best thing to do. I have a real peace in my heart that whether we are Orthodox, Catholic, or Oriental that we can be saved in those Churches and attain to the divine vision of Him in glory through their Mysteries and spirituality. And I think I really was thinking one sided about things. A theologian is really one who prays! Praise God! I stood at my ikon corner last night and prayed for three hours until I got an answer to my questions. And it was like the Lord was just telling me, in my heart, that He is not concerned about the blocks we have put up to each other except in that He wants to heal them. Prayer is awesome, especially prayer at the Home Altar! So I have had to amend my thinking a little bit.

Regarding the previous statements of Popes past, I think that the Holy Spirit is working right now to make sure that full Communion is possible for all of us one day. It is His Church and He will work through His Bishops to lead the way in the healing of the schisms. I mean essentially I have come to differentiate between a mind that is filled with the uncreated light of the Holy Spirit and one that doesn't trust God. And I think fruitless speculation, maybe some of what I have been doing, has shown a lack of trust in God. Jesus Christ is the Invisible Head of the Church and my job is to trust Him more to heal His Church, His entire Church, whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Oriental and to bring the others who are in the cults or in Protestant and evangelical groups back to the Apostolic Churches so they can have all of what God wants for them. God forgive me for not trusting him and continually give me the spirit of prayer and fasting to have His Mind on things and not my feeble human intellect.

It is not easy to think like Jesus and to act like Him. It is not easy to be filled with so much love toward all people as He was and is. I pray for the Spirit of Jesus Christ, I pray to act like Him and to love like Him. I pray to see the Church like He sees His Church, and I pray for holiness and peace.

I have really come to the conclusion that Christ will restore the Orthodox and Catholic Churches to organic unity and that even though they are not now ecclsiastically one they each have the Fulness of the Faith, each one of them. Christ will also raise up great theologicans to do all that is needed to work out a true theology of union that can be acceptable to the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. My job is to save my soul and to evangelize with my life and words, to support His Church and to die with his Name on my lips and in my heart, to die in a State of Grace. I think my grandma Horwath just dying has also put many things in perspective for me. I realized that one day I will be lying there with the priest praying over me and people reminiscing over my life, and something just snapped. I realized that holiness, that family, that our Byzantine Catholic Church and Her rich traditions, that being a man of one's word, that being dependable and upright, that helping others, was all that mattered. Death could come tommorrow or an hour from now and I need to be right with my God, I need to know his Presence in my life and feel His love. I need to help others and give more. These things I realized in my life were the most important. I will probably never see the corporate re-union of the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches, but I can save my soul, I can live my Faith, the same Faith that both have, I can reach out to others in the love of Jesus Christ and care about them. My grandmother was a very wonderful example of being a Catholic Christian, she cared about everyone and loved everyone no matter who you were and what you had done. May God grant me her spirit. Working out issues is important, but I kinda of got off track. I think I heard it one time, "that if you can't serve God while you are one this earth how can you spend eternity serving Him?" That really hit me. There are so many things inside me that need healing and I think I need to get that straightened out. I need to focus of living my Eastern Catholic faith and loving people and not acting as I have lately. I ask for your prayers that I may simply just be like Jesus, if I can I know I will see Him one day in His Kingdom; I will see His lovely face and thank Him for all the times He helped me when I didn't deserve it. I love you Jesus!

Your friend in Christ and the Theotokos:


Robert Horwath, Chief Sinner

DEAR ROBERT,
"...how He felt..."

Message of Christ to Myrna:

THE CHURCH IS THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ON EARTH, HE WHO HAS DIVIDED IT HAS SINNED AND HE WHO REJOICES FROM ITS DIVISION HAS ALSO SINNED.

This is why it is easier for me that a nonbeliever worships my name than those who pretend to have faith and be charitable and swear in my name. ...

TELL MY CHILDREN THAT IT IS FROM THEM THAT I DEMAND UNITY AND I DO NOT WANT IT FROM THOSE WHO ACT AND PRETEND TO WORK FOR UNITY.

Dear Robert let us all go and spread the news everywhere and He will be with us. Happy Thanksgiving to you. Vito

Slava Isusu Christu!

Happy Thanksgiving to you as well!

In Christ,


Robert Horwath, Chief Sinner

Good Morning and Happy Thanksgiving to All!

The question that you are discussing on this posting thread is the most critical in the Orthodox/Catholic Dialogue. It is indeed the big elephant in the room that none with to look at. That's a great analogy that I won't forget!

However, I feel that one thing should be emphasized. It is not for the Orthodox Church to participate in the defining of the Catholic Church, and vice-versa. Having said that, I will state that a leading Greek Catholic theologian (and sort of a spiritual Abouna to me)told me that it is the Catholic Church which has to do the reexamining of its doctrine. He stated to me that Catholic/Papal theology needs defending, whereas Orthodox theology doesn't (applying that it is self-defending). A very strong statemment to a Junior friend who had left the Catholic Church for Orthodoxy due to theological conviction (he smiled when I did). Ah, but the Melkites really did their best to represent Orthodoxy at Vatican I, didn't they?

Orthodoxy's concept of the ecclessia is that the Local Church is the Church in its absolute totality. This is consistent with the Early Church, where a bishop in a faraway Met see just wasn't a part of the normal Christian's daily reality. His or her bishop was the Church! St. Paul writes to THE Church at Rome, THE Church at Saloniki, etc. Catholics make a mistake when they look throughout history for this or that isolated statement from a bishop and try give it Orthodox Church meaning. Regardless of what was said and its proper context, there was an whole Orthodox Church who were not a part of the statement (and probably had no daily pastoral interest, anyway). Universal Church verses Local Church. It goes on....

Orthodoxy is non-canonical in the phenomenon of ethnic-jurisdictionalism (which is mirrored by North A Greek Catholicism). In the Orthodox Patriarchates, all Orthodox Christians belong to the Local Church (regardless of ethnic/linguistic practice or rite). Mt. Athos is probably the most famous example of this. The Greeks of Esphigmenou, the Bulgarians of Zographou, the Serbs of Chilandari and the Russians of Sviati Panteleimon are all part of the Ecumencial Patriarchate. Likewise, if the Holy Mountain's Latin Monastery is rebuilt from the ruins by the incresing number of Western Orthodox, it too will return to the jurisdiction of Constantinople. Extraterritoriality is contradictory to the Eucharistic Theology of the Orthodox Church.

Sabah al Hair, Sam. Qui Fak, Sayed? Send me an e-mail telling me about your trip, OK? Great to see you back!

Slava Isusu Christu, Alex. Slava Na Viki Bohu!

Wishing you Happiness in this Holy Festal Season!

Three Cents

Slava Isusu Khrystu, Three Cents!

Your beautiful post is really worth much, much more than 3 cents!!

Alex

I received very cordial responses when I left the Byzantine Catholic Church for Orthodoxy. In fact, the day my children and I were Chrismated into the GOA I stopped by my old B C parish since we were moving to another state. We wanted to say good-bye to our friends. When we arrived my former pastor was at the door of the church. He knew it was the Sunday I was to be received into Orthodoxy (Feast of Pentecost). His first words: "Congratulations!" I received email from the Chancellor of the B C Eparchy later (I had forwarded some news info on to him) which conveyed God's blessings for my spiritual journey from him and the Bishop. I do not believe they were secretly jealous of my decision to leave the Eastern Catholic Church for Orthodoxy. They respected me as a person and my convictions and felt I was being true to my conscience. (I really appreciated this--when I returned to the Catholic Church from Orthodoxy my former Greek pastor stated: "May God have mercy on your soul!")Shortly afterwards, I forwarded some info about the blow up in Ben Lomond to these same people and my former B C pastor made a comment re: the benefit of a higher authority to appeal to at times.

True, the Catholic Church can learn a lot from Eastern Orthodoxy. Much of the strides in the twentieth century among theologians in the Catholic Church were among those who were familiar with Eastern theology. Vatican II shows much of this influence.

But, it would be too simplistic to state that only the Catholic Church needs to change. It has changed some already and could change some more, true. A reading of Church history in the first millennium shows there was a place for the Bishop of Rome in ecclesiology. For example, what Eastern bishops disputed Pope St Leo's theological understanding of himself? (Be careful not to read Pope St Leo through modern lenses, however):

http://web.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/leo.htm

If the current Orthodox view of the Bishop of Rome as simply being "first among equals" in the first millennium is correct, how to explain the submission to the Formula of Hormisdas? (For historical background and part of the Formula--I'm still looking for the whole text of the Formula online--see this link):

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07470a.htm

BOTH Catholicism and Orthodoxy need to re-examine their theology and practices on this issue. It's not a case of one simply accepting the other's views and practices.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Robert,
You said you were Orthodox and attended an OCA. In a later post you said you were baptized in the Byzantine Catholic Church. How long were you Orthodox? Why did you apostatize? Perhaps, like myself, I was baptized Orthodox, attended Roman Catholic Church, and returned Orthodox. Were you baptized Byzantine Catholic, attended an Orthodox Church, and returned to uniatism? Or were you rebaptized in the Byzantine Catholic Church?

From what I have read of your posts, I see there is a little understanding of Orthodoxy. How much have you spent learning and practicing Orthodoxy?
I have always found quite fascinating is the return of Byzantine and Roman Catholics to the Orthodox Church but I would like to know your story. Unfortunately, many of the Byzantine Catholics that post here regarding any kind of reunion between East and West,IMO, are disillusioned. There are those who say that we accept the first Seven Ecumencial Councils only and others who say we accept 21 Councils and others who do not know. The answer to such questions will have to come from your very own hiearchs who should be one in accord. All you will see reading these posts are the excuses and coverups for being in communion with Rome and her teachings. The Eastern Catholic Churchs will one day return to the Orthodox Church via a myriad of ways or become swallowed up with the Western Church. I have seen the physical makeup of many of the Orthodox Churches composed of former Roman and Byzantine Catholics. One wonders as to what brings them to Orthodoxy rather than remaining in communion with Rome.

Dear Robert,

I still do not know what circumstances brought you into attendance in the Roman Church, if you were baptized Orthodox to begin with. I forget whether your childhood was spent in the States or back home. If the latter, the rule over there is as I'm sure you're familiar with, following the faith of the father. Why would you say you "returned Orthodox"? Weren't you officially a member of the Orthodox Church all along anyways?

In IC XC
Samer, the towelhead for brains :-)

[ 11-22-2001: Message edited by: SamB ]

Samer,
My parents married as Melkites and later attended the Roman Catholic Church in the U.S.
Being an infant I had no choice in the matter as you know(lol). I was not reared Orthodox but merely baptized as one. I discovered Orthodoxy within the last years of my college in my youngin days and devoured anything that spoke of Orthodoxy. It's a blessing to be back home in the Church of my forefathers.

Akhook bil-Meseeh,
Rum

There appears to be one true fact: Eastern Christianity is messy. While our modern minds like to have everything and everybody put into their little boxes, the fact is that working out one's salvation requires not only personal prayer and worship, but also (active!) participation in a worshipping and praying community.

I've got no problems with a Slav, baptized Orthodox, going to a Byzantine Catholic church, especially if there is no Orthodox church available, or even if the only one is either Greek or Antiochian. Because: I believe that the spirituality of the Slavonia is going to be more helpful to the person rather than do the psyche-wrenching thing of changing ethnicities. Ditto for Byzantines who would be more comfortable in a Slavic Orthodox church should no Byzantine community be available. While many older Byzantines would seek out the nearest RC parish to fulfill their "Mass obligation", I suspect that a lot of the younger folks (who are more than Sunday Christians) would seek out the local OCA parish. Even if it meant going to Vespers and not liturgy. (And the nice part about Vespers is that you can participate fully and not transgress the "not-in-communion" stuff.)

My point is: if your spirituality and worship, and your fast/feast cycle, are REALLY important to you and your daily life (shouldn't they be?!?!), then why would you do violence to your prayer life by going to the local RC parish? [I am in NO way putting down participation in Roman Catholic liturgy; there are some wonderful prayer experiences to be had there.] During Lent, when we are doing Presanctified, singing minor/plagal music, doing prostrations, abstaining from meat and dairy, and participating in that shadowy reality that is our Lent, participating in a non-Eastern worship service is going to seem very unsatisfying for the soul.

Like a flower, grow where you find the sunshine.

Blessings!