www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Old-Ritualists Forum Catholic Old Believers

There is an active Old Believer community in Poland. I recently read an excellent study on them. The older people still speak Russian, although assimilation is destroying their community. Few know anything about their services, because they refuse to allow non-Old Believers to participate or observe.

I've always been struck by the similarities between Russian schismatics & American Protestants. Both groups have had a tendency to seize one little grain of truth from scripture & then build a whole eschatology around it, e.g. snake handlers in the Appalachians and the "castraters".

Stojgniev

Dear Stoyjniev,

Well, it is true that there are Old Believers who are outside the Moscow Patriarchate, as there always have been.

But the Old Rite itself is considered today by the ROC as one of the two legitimate Rites of Russian Orthodoxy.

And the anathemas against the Old Ritual have been withdrawn by the ROC since 1973.

Alex

If I remember correctly, the Old Believers in Poland arrived before the partitions of Poland (late 18th c.)& since that time have had little or no contact with their homeland, though isolated in their villages, they managed to preserve their Russian language. Their villages are found near Bialystok in northeastern Poland.

Stojgniev

Dear Stojgniev, I would love to hear more about the Starovieryy in Poland.

I am keeping an informal sort of running collection of info about the various Old Rite groups world wide and anything you have to add would be greatly appreciated or the book you mentioned.

The bookstore of Holy Nativity Church in Erie has an interesting collection at https://securehost7.hrwebservices.net/~cotn//shopping/default.php?cPath=21_43&osCsid=e28397fff1e64d4c3d4e2b354b89d3c8

Spasi Khristos!

Filipe, there was even a priest at Mt. Angel in the mid-1960s named Fr. Theodore, now reposed, but Br. Ambrose is all that is left of the Catholic Old Rite mission.

Yes, Neil, the chapel is dedicated to the Tikhvin Icon of the Theotokos and no, you did not make that up.

Bishop Andrei Katkoff of blessed memory even visited Fr. Theodore and Brother Ambrose and offered the Old Rite. Br. Ambrose was the dyachok, the sacristan, and even did the windows in the chapel during those days.

May God reward the reposed servant Abbot Damian richly for his service and vision and the hieromonk Theodore for his service to the Old Rite faithful. Abbot Damian was a great devotee of Dom Lambert of Chevtogne.

But after the death of Fr. Theodore the popovtsy basically gravitated to churches of the Old Rite Orthodox communities in the area. Br. Ambrose was never ordained to the priesthood and the abbots after Damian apparently did not see it fit to continue to allow one of the abbey priests to serve there after the death of Fr. Theodore.

Dear Diak,

I would ask for your judgement on a hypothetical case.

Suppose there was a fellow who always crossed himself in the Old Rite tradition, even in Church - but belonged to the UGCC where they cross themselves with three fingers.

Is that fellow (and he is a hypothetical one) in violation of anything in so doing?

Can he legitimately do that?

Alex

Absolutely not. As a follower of the Old Rite who has no access to a church of his own, it would make perfect sense.

Metropolitan Andrew made it VERY CLEAR at the 1917 Russian Catholic Synod that the Old Rite was an integral part of the larger tradition of Rus' and was of equal status and dignity as the Synodal or the Ruthenian rescensions, all of which he championed for use among his clergy with the full approval of Rome.

Remember the words of St. Pius X to Pani Ushakova, nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter.

I think I have a hunch who that fellow is... perhaps "Roman"...

However one might get a lecture from a baba on the "rite" way to cross oneself...

THis discussion has been very interesting, and my first questions have definately been answered however, as one would expect, that means that I now have many more!

You mentioned that the Old Rite Catholic community was gravitating back to the Old Rite Orthodox communities. You are speaking of one particular community, but are there others in the USA which could be described as alive and well?
Are there Old Rite Catholic Communities in other countries which are alive and well?
Is the Catholic Church in danger of losing the Russian Old Rite?
Is there anywhere where the Russian Old Rite is celebrated in English?
I have gathered that some of the Old Rituals jealously guard their traditions from outsiders, (as in the polish case somebody mentioned). Does the same happen with the Catholic Old Rituals? Or can anybody walk in and observe? How about the communities in comunion with the Russian Patriarchy?

Thanks for any answers!
Filip

Filipe,

Gee, you with more questions - what a surprise (Who brought this kid here anyway ?)

It has gravitated. Randy can probably answer more definitively, but I don't believe that there are any other Catholic Old Rite communities extant in the US - frankly, I doubt that there was ever more than the single one - and I'm doubtful that there are any elsewhere -

unless there are remnants in Russia.
Randy? Andreios?

Doubtful, but I'll defer to anyone who knows about practices in the Diocese in Erie. Nothing I've seen about the communities in Oregon, Canada, or Alaska suggests that they are serving their Liturgies in English. I suspect that none of the Service Books are in English.

I think there is more openness now, although like many of the other small communities that began their existence in a persecuted environment (most all the communal type congregations regardless of faith - the Amish, the Hutterites, the Brudderhof, the Shakers, the Doukhobors, etc), the tendency is to insularity as a measure of self-preservation.

Many years,

Neil

Erie actually uses a GREAT deal of English in its services...surprisingly so.

In His Holy Name,
+Fr. Gregory

My, Filipe, you do ask a lot of questions. My kind of guy.

The bottom line is yes, there is a VERY great danger of losing the Old Rite amongst Catholics. There is no regular celebration of the Divine Liturgy in North America amongst those in communion with Rome.

And yes, there are English services at the Erie Old Rite parish. From my experience I would say 80-90%, actually.

There is an Old Rite monastery in North Dakota, the Nativity of the Theotokos Skete, that was trying to have English services, but I do not know of their fate. Last I heard it was down to a couple of monks, one of whom was very ill.

As far as Eastern Europe goes, the persecutions of the Stalinist regime were so deep it is likely that most of the faithful are attending an Orthodox soglas such as the MP or Bila Krinistsya. Literally all of the Catholic Old Rite clergy of the time were martyred.

But some of us haven't given up yet.

Bless, Father Gregory!

Do you know what you call those who speak more than two languages? They're "Multilingual."

And those who speak two languages? Yes, you are right - "Bilingual."

And those who speak just one language?

American . . .

Alex

Filipe, the Catholic Old Believers allowed non-Old Rite persons (even Latins ) to attend their Liturgies when celebrated by Frs. Emilianov and Susalev. Father Eustachy had all kinds of Catholics, Anglicans etc. wandering into his chapel in St. Petersburg. They did not practice some the more particular and extreme Old Rite local customs such as forbidding eating in the same room and off of the plates as non believers, etc.

Even in Erie, any visitor can attend services if they respect the wishes of the parish. Erie also has parish dinners and I think they are not strict about not eating on the same dinnerware as non-believers at their dinners, as many of the Old Rite communities practice.

Some Old Believers in Oregon and Alaska will not even let non-believers into the main part of the house, but only into a covered porch sort of area as they strictly believe the home to be the domestic church, and thus the non-believers must stay in the narthex. And thus they also do not allow non-believers into the church itself, especially the bezpopovtsy.

In Russia the parishes in communion with the MP do allow visitors, but they demand that if a woman visits she have a head covering (they will usually give you one if you don't) and be dressed modestly. She must also stand on the proper side of the church where all of the women stand, i.e. the side of the Icon of the Theotokos, north (or the left side of the church as you are looking at the iconostasis). Men cannot wear shorts, etc.

The article on Old Believers in Poland is: "Group identity of Old Believers in northeastern Poland" by M. Flaga, W. Janicki and M. Milanowska in Region and Regionalism 6.2 (2003): 77-85. The journal is published in Lodz and Opole.


Old Believers settled in the Suwalki area from the 18th century. Their numbers have varied greatly over the years (over 4000 in 1921 to 2600 today). Although the Old Believers are prohibited from marrying outside their faith, large numbers of their youth have left for the cities, where they experience assimilation.

Traditionally Old Believers did not use tobacco or alcohol, though that practice is fading. The younger men members have given up the traditional full beard. An important mark of their settlements is the bania - still today those who do not bathe on Saturday are not allowed to attend church on Sunday.

Their liturgical language is Slavonic, their language of everyday speech is a mixture of Russian, Slavonic and Polish.

In Poland there are only two communities of the priested Old Believers and 47 of the priestless.

Sounds rather suspiciously. I didn't ever
hear about "popovtsi" in contemporary Poland,
and the number of priestless communities seems
very unlikely, it would be rather less than
ten communities.

Could you provide communities' names?

Sincerely,
deacon Peter

PS. There is a website about Old Believers
in Poland at:

http://www.philipponia.republika.pl/index.htm