www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Ecumenical Patriarch denounces "Third Rome" Theory

Of course... I don't mind.
Anyway, she's not Orthodox or Protestant either...
So, I cannot call her My orthodox or protestant sister...
(admin, I do not imply that Orthodoxy is the same as protestantism, I just imply that of the 3 major branches of Christianity, we already excluded the chances of her being Catholic so the last 2 were left and those are now excluded by what I said on this post...)

I would look at this from the pragmatic level from two standpoints.

The first is that even if the idea of a �third Rome� was still entertained in Russia, for all practical purposes it would not mean a lot. The reason I believe is that the Russian hierarchy would not be interested in overseeing a transnational or multicultural church. I think primarily they are interested in the serving and forwarding the interests of Russians, both at home and abroad. That is not a criticism, it is just my feeling as to what their perspective is.

The second stand point is that Metropolitan Kyrill does have a point. Due to its size and influence the Russian Church I have to say does have a de facto place of pre-eminence in the Orthodox world. The Ecumenical Patriarch, though it pains me to say it, is a fish in shrinking pool. It is honestly not inconceivable to me that the Patriarchate will have to vacate the Queen City within a generation.

Andrew

The best way for both Patriarchs to defuse this argument is to agree that someone else should be the "Pope of Orthodoxy".

I have lost count of the number of times I have heard Orthodox hierarchs, theologians, clergy and faithful say "we need a Pope!".

There is one, and he is available. One Pope is a blessing; two at the same time is a curse (it has happened and it's no fun at all).

Those who have read the writings of Vladimir Soloviov will remember his prediction of a breach in communion between Constantinople and Moscow. Fasten your seat belts; we may be in for a bumpy ride.

Incognitus

Turbulence is never pleasant.

I will fasten my seat belt though!

Alice

Dear Andrew you said:

I say:

Turkey has just that intention. It requires Turkish citizenship for the Patriarch, yet has conveniently ethnically cleansed all the Greek Orthodox, and at the same time, refuses to open the theological school at Halki.

Well, there will be no one to take Patriarch Bartolomew's place, although there are Turkish speaking Orthodox, (no one know's where they came from, although two theories exist). One is that they were originally Turks that had contact with the Byzantine Empire and became Christian, and the other is that they were Orthodox, that eventually adopted the Turkish language.

Then again, there is the Bulgarian bishop, But the Turks say that the Patriarch is only the bishop for the Greek speaking people in Turkey, so it seems that the Patriarch will cease to exist...in Turkey at least. Then again, isn't that what Turkey wants? :rolleyes:

But let's not dispair. We do not know what God has in store.

Zenovia

How sad! Where would the Patriarch of Constantinople go? The US?

Remember Avignon...

Gordo

Gordo,

Actually this is not a new matter. A number of places have been suggested in the event that the patriarchate must leave Constantinople, including the patriarchal complex in Chambessy Switzerland.

I guess a determination would be made when the time is right.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Imagine what a blessing it would be to have our Ecumenical Patriarch here in the United States!

I recall with what filial devotion the late Archbishop Joseph Raya regarded the Ecumenical Patriarch. As the bishop to the see of Constantinople - the Mother Church of Byzantium - he is, after all, the spiritual father of all Byzantine Christians, including all Byzantine Catholics as well as the Patriarch of Moscow. Most recently, I have begun to commemorate him in my prayers after Pope Benedict and before our own Metropolitan Archbishop. I pray for the day that such prayers can be offered for our Ecumenical Patriarch in all our churches!

As an aside, not many may know that Mundelein Seminary in Libertyville was designated as the residence in exile for Pope Pius XII should the Nazi occupation of Rome threaten His Holiness's ability to lead the church and/or his life. Fortunately for many, including the Jews he helped to save, Pope Pius remained in Rome for the duration of the conflict.

May God bless our Ecumenical Patriarch!

Gordo

Since no one is expelling the Ecumenical Patriarch from Constantinople at the immediate moment, ideas as to where he might go are in the realm of speculation. With that caveat, here are a few possibilities:

Chambesy - well, not perhaps the best solution, because the Patriarch would once again find himself with a very small flock. Possible, though.

New York - interesting. I take it for granted that if the Ecumenical Patriarch took up residence in the USA the jurisdictional problem in the USA would collapse.

Rhodes - well, it is unquestionably his, and it is outside of Turkey. Getting to or from Rhodes might be a bit of a nuisance, but nothing major against it.

Thessaloniki - now there's an interesting idea. As Bartholomew has recently made clear, this is also a territory which belongs to the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and which has a long connection to Constantinople - in fact to Byzantium, if I may make such a distinction. It also has a Patriarchal Monastery and Institute (Vlatadon). Getting down to brass tacks, it has a major international airport and other modern necessities of life - and I'm confident that the city fathers, whoever they may be, can grasp the point that having their city as the seat of the Ecumenical Patriarch might be very good for Thessaloniki. Whether the Church of Greece would share their happiness is a different question.

On the other hand (said Incognitus, still speculating) there is an unpleasant consideration back in Constantinople: the "Turkish Orthodox Church" still maintains a shadowy existence, complete with "Patriarch". I would not put it past the Turkish government to announce that an Ecumenical Patriarch who left Constantinople more-or-less permanently had thereby resigned - and then installing this Turkish "Patriarch-in-waiting" in the Phanar, in hopes of causing more chaos in the Orthodox world.

Incognitus

The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is the First among Equals. He is not a Pope and he is not the "head of the Turkish church". Specially the last one must be one of the most discusting things that I have read. The Patriarch of Constantinople is there for about 17 centuries so these discussions about leaving from Constantinople have nothing to do with reality. And he is the Universal Patriarch. The one for all christians around the world. The patriarch of Russia (and all the other patriarchs) is what his title simply says. For the Russians. Nothing wrong with that but we must not mess these things because the Russians are so many. After all from where did the Russians, and all the other orthodox christians, learned about their religion? That's right. from the Byzantine Empire (or the Eastern Roman Empire, if you prefer). And to conclude, there is no such thing as the "third rome". There was the Rome. And the new Rome, Constantinople, build over the ancient Greek city of Vyzantium by Constantine. And because it was the new capital of the Roman Empire it was called the New Rome.

If the Turks go after him, Patriarch Bartholomew can come and live at my house!

I whole heartedly agree!!!

Kyiv! It could use another good Patriarch!