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I know that Orthodox Christians reject the whole notion of indulgences; but I was wondering how Byzantine Catholics, who are in communion with the Pope, explain them--or at least explain them away.

I confess that I have very little sympathy for the underlying Latin notion of a temporal punishment that God deems necessary to mete out to all forgiven Christians. I know that we all continue to suffer the consequences of our sins, but that would seem to be a different matter.

I welcome your thoughts.

Dear: Fr. K

Glory to Jesus Christ!

As for indulgences and purgatory, i do not subscribe to the Roman Churches theological Point of view, even as a Byzantine Catholic. I rather take the Tradtional Eastern view of Theosis. I would gather that since the Pope has asked us to return to our Tradtions and Original Theological Views, that most byzantine catholics would think the same, but their are alot of Latinized Byzantine Catholics out there unfortunatly.

In Christ+
Daniel

I echo brother Daniels above statements. This is my view too as a member of the Armenian Catholic Church.

In Christ's Light,
Ghazar

p.s. Perhaps the main difference between Eastern Catholics and Orthodox on indulgences is this:

we might have a little more tolerance and respect for the Latin Churches' freedom to develop its theology to its current understanding of indulgences than does our Orthodox brethren.

While in college, I went to a Bible Study at Dr. Scott Hahn's house in which he described temporal punishment not as some actual punishment meted out by God, but rather as the simple effects of sin on the person and the world around him. The most common form of temporal punishment is the attatchment to the sin itself. Indulgenced actions and prayers, then, are the medicine that the Church recommends for healing these effects, both on the individual and on the world. At this point, I think (I'm not a theologian) the East would not object to the concept.

Of course, Dr. Hahn's explanation included the idea that the indulgences draw on the merits of Christ, and the saints. However, exluding this, I think that the above understanding of things would be acceptable to the East.

Moreover, it is important to note that the popular understanding that indulgences and the time period attatched to them apply to time in Purgatory is erroneous, however common. Originally, indulgences arose because the medieval Irish confessors were imposing such strict penances, they realized they were driving the faithful away and needlessly depriving them of the Sacraments. Therefore, they would attatch indulgences to certain actions--e.g. make a pilgrimage to such and such shrine, and 300 days of penance will be satisfied. However, in later practice this became grossly misunderstood and abused. Again, this in its proper form is something the East wouldn't object to.

Justin

Perhaps a very similar matter - as jbosl pointed out, and as detailed in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church.

What we [may] continue to suffer is an "unhealthy attachment to creatures" - a condition that we are trying to overcome. Acts of penance, devotion, prayer, etc., done by us or by others for us advance this purification.

I've mentioned before on this forum that the idea as punishment as a responsible and loving means to advance right behavior and thinking seems to have been lost among us modern people. Now, punishment seems to equal abuse (thus the teaching goes nowhere). I don't know that behaviors have improved, however, from this enlightened perspective.

Dear Fr. Kimel,

I think you have a misunderstanding of indulgences here. First of all, indulgences are partial or total remission of temporal "punishment" (for lack of a more approprate word, and I'll come back to this in a moment) of ALREADY FORGIVEN sins.

The first thing we must understand is the nature of sin. When we sin, we're not just offending God, we're also hurting others-- either directly or indirectly. Sin has a TEMPORAL aspect-- it has consequences on us and the world around us. When a little boy hits his baseball through his living room window, he didn't just make Mom mad-- he BROKE something. And that something has to be FIXED. The boy might be very sorry, and sincerely apologize to Mom-- and Mom will hug him and say, "Son, I forgive you. But someone has to pay for that broken window, and it's coming out of your allowance."

So indulgences (which must ALWAYS be accompanied by genuine contrition and confession) are the means by which we attempt to rectify the damage wrought by our sins-- and we can apply these "rectifications" to the the sins of others. It would be like the boy's older brother stepping forward and offering to pay for the window his little brother broke. Thus indulgences may be applied to the souls still being purified--Romans call this state purgatory (in the East, this is seen more as a process, called theosis).

A word about God's "punishment": God doesn't "punish" us out of a sense of vindictiveness-- sin, by its very nature, wounds us, wounds our relationship to Christ, and wounds our relationship to one another-- and these wounds must be healed. Ever put hydrogen peroxide on a cut? It STINGS, hurts like the dickens.. but only because it's cleansing the cut of harmful bacteria that could cause infection. God's "punishment" works the same way-- it's cleansing, HEALING. But like little kids, we often just feel the pain without knowing the good it's doing. God must look at our sufferings and say, "My child, if only you knew the value of your suffering!" It was in my suffering that I personally was brought to Christ and His Holy Catholic Church-- I had to watch my mom battle cancer (and lose) for three years. Little did I know that God was using my pain to bring me to Himself, and I thank Him for that.

Glory to Jesus Christ!


God bless,

Karen

But the previous point begs the question. If sins are not forgiven, then what efficacy does the Sacrament of Penance really have? Are we forgiven or not? Forgiven for a time? Are we really healed or not? Will I still need some indulgences after a heart-felt confession? I don't recall our Lord saying, "Your sins are forgiven...for a while" in the Gospels.

This is one aspect of Latin theology that has always greatly disturbed me and continues to do so. It is completely foreign to any Eastern idea of the Mystery of Repentence and does not appear in patristic literature and spiritual works up into medieval times.

The absolution formula seems pretty clear: "and I forgive and absolve you of all your sins..."

By the way, the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem does give indulgences. I've no idea what he expects the recipients to do with them. Incognitus

Forgiveness seems clear as you note.
Evidently, however, we are not, generally, healed. After a heart-felt confession, one is likely nevertheless to continue to fall short and to miss the mark. Continuing medicinal treatment is therefore certainly appears to be needed. Yes acts of penance are needed.

Advance their salvation?

I'd be interested in hearing more about this. Are there any more details about "indulgences" in the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem?

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Hence the need for frequent confession. Healing and absolution are complete after sacramental confession. In our weakness, however, we will stumble again. Confession is for additional sins committed, not those already absolved. These are new sins, new failings.

What is being discussed above are concerns, guilt, etc. for past sins forgiven. This still doesn't quite get to the answer. I am also uncomfortable with this answer as it insinuates that there is some lack of faith or assurance as to the efficacy of the Sacrament if we are not healed. I do not disagree that we should always be repenting for our sins, but do it out of joy and love knowing that this great and immense Mystery cleans the slate between us and God. If it does not clean the slate, why do we have it?

Bless me a sinner, Father Kimel!

However modern RC theologians define temporal punishment (which appears to now come very close to the Eastern Patristic perspective), the Eastern Churches do indeed have an understanding of an ongoing state of fallen human nature that persists even with confession.

We confess our sins regularly and are forgiven completely.

But our human nature isn't transfigured as a result - but only after a lifetime of struggle.

Prayer, fasting, vigils, good works, self-abasement et al. are part of the Christian life.

We pray "Have mercy on me a sinner" until our last breath on our way to salvation and theosis.

Nothing can or should stop that life-long spiritual struggle.

The Church may grant us remission of our sins - including those written grants from Patriarchs and the scroll that is placed into the hands of the reposed in their coffins by priests.

But we, for our part, must struggle and pray ceaselessly throughout our lives.

If RC indulgences mean, and I"m not saying they do, the remission of an undefined "debt" of temporal punishment - then I think that is actually harmful to the spiritual life.

There can be no letting up of our efforts in spiritual struggle while we live in this world.

But IF the indulgence is a way for the Church to formally ratify the full remisson of sins, THEN that is different.

As Professor Poselianin states in his book, the Mother of God, there still are "Vidpusts" practiced in the Russian Orthodox Church among formerly Greek-Catholic parishes that are now Orthodox.

They see these as pilgrimages to shrines where people receive a kind of "communal forgiveness" from the Church and after private confession.

For myself, I see a plenary indulgence attached to reading Scripture for half an hour as a commendation of such an exercise by the Church. Or the recital of the Rosary before the Altar in Church or the Way of the Cross.

These are exercises that people would want to engage themselves in frequently as great helps in the Christian life.

Alex

Well I think that the "slate is cleaned" means that our communion and spiritual vitality is restored. But our nature is not immediately and wholly transformed. To continue to advance the transformation is why "we have it".

Not in the CCC or most of the posts here.

Diak,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Ah, but part of the mystery of confession is penance. After we confess, the priest gives us a penance to perform... why?