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Dear Teen Logo,

Catholic girls that are loose?

Now that's a pretty serious charge, Big Guy!

We want particulars from you to back up your claim - names, addresses, phone numbers . . .

(Sorry, I couldn't resist the temptation . . .)

Alex

Dear djs,

Very good point to Memo!

In fact, Memo presents a good explanation of what pre-Vatican II Rome asserted - the CCC now goes beyond that kind of "accountancy" spirituality, as Diak correctly asserts.

I feel so ignorant among such learned people here!

Alex

Dear Incognitus,

After the conversations we've been having about the lotus position et al., I was really feeling in the mood for Indian cuisine.

And so I indulged last night as well . . .

It was, Ommmm, very good!

Begging your indulgence . . .

Alex

Good gosh, Alex, I was just re-reading this thread and found your question. Please excuse my all too-often lack of attention and consideration...getting old, I guess.

This paper contains the "Prayer of Absolution", "May our Lord Jesus Christ, by His divine grace, and also by the gift and power given unto His holy disciples and apostles, that they should bind and loose the sins of men..."etc. in English (or the "Miloserdnij i mnohomilostivij Hospodi Isuse Christe, Bozhe nash..." etc. in Ukrainian per the Studite Trebnik).

This is done at the end of Parastas after the verses of farewell (the "Priidit Brattya" in Ukrainian in that wonderful "Yehda ot dreva" podoben) and the final farewell.

After the priest reads the Prayer of Absolution he places the paper in the left hand of the deceased, the casket is closed and the procession from the church to the cemetary takes place.

Yes, in a way, this rite is a "vidpust" from death to life eternal.

Dear Alex,
Hope you enjoyed your Indian Indulgence! Me, I had some nice dim sum for lunch today. Incognitus

You told me that, remember?

Alex, I'm gonna have to tell Bishop Stephen on you!

Logos Teen

P.S. I'm still looking for an answer to my question.

LT,

You're right. And I'm not going to get into how I know...

Dear Teen Logo,

If you can find him, you can tell him . . .

Let me know if you do find him

Alex

My dear Latin friends,

So could you help me with an unresolved issue with respect to indulgences . . .

If the purpose of indulgences is to lessen our temporal punishment for sin, the kind of penance that we really should do all our lives - why have indulgences in the first place?

Is it a "home free" ticket? If so, isn't it something that discourages spiritual efforts beyond the minimum required to gain the indulgence?

So if I a plentary indulgence and even several in a row - does this mean I no longer have to do penance?

What does it mean?

Alex

Good question, Alex! If penances are medicinal and therapeutic, then why would I want in any way to be dispensed from them, since they are spiritually good and necessary for me?

If indulgences are addressed to life in purgatory, why would I want to in any way be delivered from purgatory's healing and purification before I was fit and ready for the higher levels of heaven?

None of it makes sense to me, I admit. It seems to be a very crude way of sacramentally invoking the prayers of the saints on behalf of those who are working (either on earth or in purgatory) out their salvation.

Bless me a sinner, Father Kimel!

Yes, an excellent way of putting it - and so Eastern!

Ultimately the issue of temporal punishment is resolvable - as Dr. Scott Hahn has discussed.

I don't see too, too much difference between the classic RC view of temporal punishment and the Eastern view of fallen humanity susceptible to concupiscence that requires constant spiritual therapy etc.

But, as you so brilliantly put it, why would you want to dispense with the therapy, in this life or the next?

However, IF indulgences have something to do with a kind of public act of absolution, then that is different.

But at no time can we ever think of ourselves as being free of the struggle of ascesis in the Life in Christ.

I am also thinking here of your Anglican saint Nicholas Ferrar of Little Gidding and how he and his family would recite the Psalter in full twice in every 24 hours.

Oh, and a happy John Wycliffe's Day to you today and All Saints of the Reformation tomorrow!

alex

Well, all your points are well taken. But maybe it would help to look at it this way - an indulgence is just one more form of God's mercy. Sometimes He knows that a penance might be too much for us to handle, so He lets us off the hook.

The classic example is the little boy who breaks the neighbor's window while playing baseball. He really wants to fix it, and breaks open his piggy bank and counts out all the money he has, but it's only a fraction of the cost of a new window (even when Home Depot has a sale ). So his loving dad, seeing how bad his kid feels and how hard he's trying to fix it, steps in and provides the rest of the money.

And because this is a really indulgent dad, he tells the kid not to worry about paying him back - just be extra-careful with that bat from now on!

That's an indulgence - just our Father giving us a helping hand!

My preference, to the extent that I am able to conform my appetites to my better judgement, is to avoid taking medicine by developing salutary practices that mitigate sickness. I am talking about helath and disease, but the idea applies precisely to sin-sickness as well. Establishing a connection between salutary practices of a prophylactic nature - in lieu of medicine - may be taken as overly detailed accounting. But have you heard an analogous criticism of "an apple a day keeps the doctor away", or advice against smoking to avoid chemotherapy, etc.?

Dear djs,

Yes, exactly, spiritual therapy should, ideally, do both.

I know that I sin most when my prayer life is weakest.

The Fathers of the Church always taught that we should pray most immediately after sinning.

When the devil sees that his temptations of us lead us to much more prayer by us than usual, he will leave us alone, not wishing to be the cause of deeper spiritual life in us . . .

Alex

Dear Dolly,

I have no wish to dissuade anyone here from making use of indulgences.

The indulgenced acts of reading Scripture for half an hour, praying the Rosary before the Blessed Sacrament or making the Stations of the Cross in a public oratory where they are set up and blessed - let's do these daily!

I'm just having a hard time understanding where they fit into my spiritual life that should always be "plugged into God" and asking His healing Grace to be poured over my sinful and passionate soul constantly.

IF it is a "way out" of this medicine, I prefer the medicine.

IF indulgences are a form of ecclesial public absolution, following private confession of course, where the way in which my sins have offended the Church et al. are forgiven - then I accept that.

Alex