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Glory to Jesus Christ!

Is it possible for an Orthodox Christian who wants to become in communion with the Bishop of Rome, to become Roman Catholic? I know that the overwhelming majority of cases are not this way, but what if someone has a genuine devotion to traditional Western Catholic Spirituality?
Note: I'm not talking about mixed marriages between an RC and EO, but about individuals on their own. Can Roman Catholics keep a Byzantine-type prayer rule, with an icon corner, and Orthodox Prayerbooks with all the usual prayers?

Many Thanks,

Michael

Hello Mike,
I depends on what you mean by and Orthodox becoming Roman Catholic.
Normally an Orthodox who desires to be in communion with the Church of Rome "remains" Orthodox and is received into communion with one of the equivalent sui juris churches that are in communion with Rome.
They retain the liturgy, traditions and methods of prayer that they have always practiced.

Hope this has not confussed you more!

Fraternally
Fr Stephanos
Unworthy Monk and Arch sinner.

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: Stephanos ]

OK, AFAIK in official Catholicspeak (using Brendan's distinctions) an Orthodox who, I assume, has voluntarily changed his affiliation (as official Catholicspeak no longer solicits such changes) would be discouraged from changing over to the Roman Church, as it tries to protect the integrity of the Eastern Churches. But such official canonical changes are of course possible, just like for former Romans who switch (fair is fair). So, the short answer is yes, such a person can make this change. Rank-and-file Catholicspeak, OTOH, AFAIK still doesn't much care about these matters and, seeing Roman as default Catholicism, would have no problem taking a born Orthodox on board.

As for a Roman leading an Orthodox prayer life at home, I imagine Catholicism has no problem with that. To quote a Russian Catholic priest, our ancient and large tradition is entirely Catholic. The issue of being out of sync with one's rite in church, however, shouldn't be overlooked, any more than if a born Byzantine did nothing but stations and novenas and knew nothing about Orthodox prayer life.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Serge,

Are you sure you're not a Catholic?

If you still insist you're not, well, I certainly feel more at home with you than with a lot of Catholics I know . . .

It is a relatively easy matter to change one's rite in the Catholic Church, giving a reason etc.

Then there is that matter we once talked about before The Tragedy (before the Forum crashed that is) having to do with Latin missions in Russia and Latin Rite Russian Catholics. I'm sure they weren't coerced, I am positive . . .

As for devotions, when I first saw the (Byzantine) light, I stopped saying the Rosary. Then I came across the "Rule of the Mother of God" as said by St Seraphim of Sarov, St Seraphim Zvezdinsky and a host of other Orthodox souls (especially as discussed in "Staretz Zechariah").

Now I'm back full circle. I love the Ros. . er, Rule of the Mother of God and use St Seraphim's method.

The thing is, it resembles that of St Louis de Montfort so closely.

Do you St Seraphim ever studied at St Sulpice in Paris?

God bless,

Alex

Michael --

I thing Serge has summed up the situation well. Officially, the canon law would consider you properly a member of a sui juris Eastern Catholic Church. As such you would be free to attend Roman Catholic Mass, receive the sacraments there, and never set foot in an Eastern Catholic parish (if you wished) -- just like countless born Eastern Catholics do every week.

If you were interested in "switching rites", there is a paperwork process involved. The only reasons to do that, really, relate to (1) marriage (may be awkward being married in a ritual church that you don't regularly attend), (2) initiation of children (supposed to be in the ritual church of the father -- again, can create awkward situations if that's not the ritual church you attend, but a good number of priests simply look the other way on this one), and (3) ordination.

Of course, Roman Catholics display a wide diversity of private prayer lives, running from Zen practice, to using the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer, to traditional Latin Catholic devotions to Eastern Orthodox devotions. The problem that Serge mentions is a serious one -- one should be, ideally, in devotional sync with the ritual church that one regularly attends (doubtless one of the reasons why the Jesuits who practice "Zen Catholicism" have changed some of the atmospherics of the Mass to mesh better with their Zen-inspired devotional practices).

Brendan

Dear Brendan,

And we have a problem with adapting Christianity to Zen?

Now that we've finished with Islam, we are moving on, are we?

(You know I love ribbing you - somehow you provoke that in me . . .).

An Orthodox bishop, Seraphim Sigrist, was actually the one who introduced me to this literature and I have just completed a book review of his latest publication for a journal.

Is it your contention that Orthodox Christianity must stop adapting its forms in its world-wide outreach?

Take your time . . .

Alex

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

An Orthodox bishop, Seraphim Sigrist, was actually the one who introduced me to this literature and I have just completed a book review of his latest publication for a journal.

Wasn't he the bishop of Japan for many years? If so, he should know both about Buddhism and about Japanizing Orthodoxy culturally.

http://oldworldrus.com

To simplify, one votes with one's feet.

Similarly: grow where you are planted.

If a person is Orthodox-baptized, but perforce of circumstances or spiritual growth, attends a Roman church, then leave him/her alone. It is a matter of the person's soul, God, and the spiritual father/pastor. Don't obfuscate the matter with "laws" or "regulations". Most priests I know (the GOOD ones!) will deal with the baptized person's soul and do whatever is necessary for its spiritual progress.

Why even bother with the books? Is the Holy Spirit dead?

GRACE RULES!!

Blessings!

Alex --

I didn't say that it was not appropriate -- what I said was that it makes some sense for the "Zen Catholics" to have changed the atmospherics of the Mass so as to mesh better with their Zen devotional practices -- otherwise you have a set of devotionals that are out of sync with the liturgy.

Brendan

Dear Brendan,

Oh!

It sounded to me like you were not happy with the Zen-inspired devotions . . .

I was wrong. Forgive me.

Serge is right. Bishop Sigrist was the OCA Bishop of East Japan, a great scholar and a man of the widest possible perspectives on spirituality and culture.

Brendan, dear fellow, my question then to you, since I've totally misunderstood you before, now is - could Orthodox liturgy be adapted to the Asian context of Zen and the like?

Hopefully, I won't misunderstand you again, or at least not right now.

You are just too scholarly and subtle for me . . .

Your chastened servant,

Alex

I now this is not the case but:

I've seen that the latin catholic services are atractive for orthodox people while some latin catholics appear not to be very happy with them. I've been with orthodox people who say they loved the new western mass, "it's very vibrant, wonderful" they say.
In Russia, for example, the Orthodox Church complains about the "proselitism" of the Roman catholic church and the "convertions" of orthodox christians to roman catholicism. To tell you the truth, (although I'm Orthodox) I don't think that the word "proselitism" is correct. They become roman catholics because they like the catholic church and that's not bad.
At the same time, atheists and old latin christians find spiritual confort in the orthodox faith and usage.

Don't you think this proves that both churches need to make an intense ecumenical dialogue?
During the dialogue of Chambessy and other ecumenical congresses, theologians and some bishops said that the apathic conduct of some church hierarchs is negatively afecting the progress of the dialogue.

Some people think that this phenomenon (orthodox becoming roman, and roman becoming orthodox)is a "local thing" of the USA, but I respectfuly disagree. The fact this phenomenon is remarkable in the USA because the society is diverse and the country is plenty of religious choices, information and dioceses of most of the true apostholic churches. On the contrary, italians, greeks, latin americans have to choose between the orthodox or the catholic church and the protestant sects, and (thank' god!) most of them prefer to remain orthodox or roman catholics.

It's just a personal opinion.