www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Western students reflect on visit to BC Church

Each semester I teach some theology classes at the Un. of St. Francis in Joliet. I require them to visit my Church and write a 3 page reflection paper. I ask them to reflect on the similarities and differences between their experience of worship and what they experienced at my Church. Moreover, I ask them to reflect on St. John's vision of worship in Revelation. I'm uncomfortable with the classroom as the primary place for the study of theology. If I could arrange it I'd have all of my classes at Church. Most of the students are nominal RC. Some are faithful RC and a few are Protestant. Some have no prior experience of the Church at all.

For the next few days I will share some excerpts from some of these papers. Comments are welcome.

"One of the major differences that I found...was that the priest was behind the fence (sic) or in the back room the whole time....It gave me the feeling that he was the communicator between God and myself. The priest is someone who has the power over everyone to speak with God, and the area that he does that in is a sanctuary. It's like a phone booth directly to God. It made me feel that the priest was speaking to God, and that we were there to watch and participate in; instead, at my church, the priest preaches to the people in the parish ABOUT God. (emphasis mine) The priest was facing the same direction as we were, toward God. At my church the priest faces us the whole time, even when he is sitting down. I don't know exactly the logic behind the catholic religion and the why the priest faces with his back toward Jesus."

Comments? More later.

Dan Lauffer

Somehow, it seems the whole western world has an erroneous understanding of what it means to "worship" God. What passes for "worship" in most western, non-orthodox churches is at best "praise", if not outright worship of the creation rather than of the creator. The only true worship is that offered by God unto Himself through the sacrifice of the Son, right? Only by our participation in that do we actually worship God. Not by talking about Him, not by singing songs, not by reading His Word, only by our presence at the Sacrifice and our union with Him through the Holy Mysteries do we really worship Him.

You have your work cut out for you, Professor!

Did a college level theology student really say "the priest was behind the fence" ? Also it appears that the student failed to appreciate the congregation's participation in the Divine Liturgy, and viewed it too much in terms of the priest alone, communicating with God. Even if he or she considered that to be a positive action.

Gentlemen,

Yes, I do have my work cut out for me. I think I'm the only faculty member at USF that has any first hand knowledge of the East, and I'm adjunct. At least we're getting the word out even if what they hear isn't always what is said.

Yes, she did write "fence". This is one of the better reports on the visit. Wait until I have the time to share some of the others!

O well, I look at it this way. This is Theo. 101. Most of them will never come across the Eastern Churches unless I introduce them to it within the broad context of Theology. So I press on.

Dan Lauffer

Another student wrote:

"I have never seen communion given out with so much respect and power....When I attend mass it is sad to point out that a lot of us go trhought the motions and are not listening to what is going on. Most people are watching the clock to see how much longer until the mass is over. I was very impressed by your Church and when I attend mass this Saturday at my Church I will make more of an effort to watch and listen to everything that is going on."

Light from the East?

And another:

"During mass I found it very distracting to see people walking around and talking to each other." (I guess moving ones lips in prayer is so odd to this student that she thought we were talking to one another.) "It was very hard for me to understand what was being said for a couple of reasons. The first reason being that the priest and deacon had their backs to me when they were speaking. Being raised RC; I was not very fond of this practice." (I asked her, 'does this matter' that you are not fond of this?) "The second reason I found mass difficult to understand was because everything was chanted. Again I was not fond of this..."

"Although the icons painted on the walls everywhere are very colorful, I still found them extremely distracting....I was looking at the pictures and then it would dawn on me; I was supposed to be paying attention."

Dan Lauffer

:rolleyes:

Just get me some of that old-time religion . . .

Dan

The part about the Icons being extremely distracting, really shocks me. Their were some documents that came out around the time of Vatican II, that made similar claims about too many statues in churches, and how this could cause distractions during the Mass. Personally I don't think you could make a more ridiculous assertion. I remember being in St Mary of Perpetual Help (one of the most beautiful churches in Chicago) last year with my girlfriend, and I remember telling her to look around anywhere inside the church and see if you don't see an instant reminder of why you're here. Kind of hard to get restless and thinking about how many minutes it is to kickoff time when everyplace you look, you see an Icon, a Statue, a painting or stained glass windows.

Gentlemen,

My standards reponses:

1. To the complaint about the priest not facing the people I say: "This is the proper way for all priests to face. They are leading us in worshipping God and it is the way the RC's used to do it as well."

2. To the complaint about distracting icons I say: "What you don't understand is that the icons draw you into worship. We join the heavenly worshippers in their liturgy."

Dan Lauffer

Another:

"...A lot of effert was being expended during this worship because of the chanting. I would hate to claim it is too much, however I found myself growing a bit fatigued and my throat was becoming sore. Finally, I really appreciated the ending of the mass. In my Church everyone usually leaves without much of a word besides among known friends. I felt welcomed by all the people in the common room who stopped to offer me a handshake, a smile, or refreshments. It was truly a warm experience and would like to thank the pastors of Annunciation for welcoming me into their place of worship."

I will share portions of a real doozy tomorrow. Talk about miscommunication!!

Dan Lauffer

The remarks about the Ikons and chanting being distracting do not suprise me: I would except more of them. One must keep in mind that many a modern RC church is sterile (and this is the best word i can think of), and the actual participation of the laity at Mass is rather close to none existent. If one is raised in this setting, then to witness the Byzantine experience would be very jarring.

We have a college professor in our ranks as well. He has his students visit our parish, and the comments we have heard from them have been either none committal, or good, but mostly of suprise.

Dear Professor Dan,

I organized a Divine Liturgy for our Catholic university community.

And the comments were quite similar.

Obviously, none of the students were Tridentines!

I can just see it now - Rome brings back a version of the Tridentine Mass while Novus Ordo Catholics take to the streets in protest decrying Rome's corruption and faithlessness to tradition . . .

This shows just what Eastern Catholics like me went through in Latin Catholic educational institutions.

They were an education all around . . .

Alex

Several months ago an Episcopalian blue blood toured our Church. Her comment: "Looks like the quaint garish stuff we saw in Greece. sniff..." (How does one pop someone on the nose without sinning?) I thought her comment was about as vulgar as I'd heard until one of my students wrote what I'm conveying today. His comments are so off the wall that I don't know how many posts it will take. Clearly, almost all of it will set your teeth on edge.

"This Sunday we visited the Annunciation Eastern Orthodox Church in Lockport. The purpose of this mandatory field trip was to learn about another faith..."

"The first difference that I noticed was the exterior of the building. It looked like an arcade....According to Father Tom" (who lectured a week before the visit) "Orthodox Christians do things in an over-the-top garish fashion to stress the importance. I suppose the reason Catholics do not do likewise is because we believe in inward worship. For instance, Jesus tells a parable of the two men; one publicly professes his faith on the street corner and the other worships alone in his room. The man on the corner is called a hypocrite according to the Catholic faith. That is why Catholic Churches and traditions are fairly simpler(sic) by comparison." (I wonder why he goes to mass?)

"This 'decorative' Orthodox style could be applied to the mass as well. The Bible is chanted and not read. All elements of the mass are dragged out to a near excruciating length. Fr. Tom commented that Catholics simply want to 'get it (mass) over with.'" (I don't recall him saying that.) "I do not believe that this is true because if Catholics did not like church they would not go. Instead I would comment that perhaps Orthodox masses are longer because they feel that they have to make up for something." (Holy pre-VC II, Batman )

"There were few pews, because the congregation is discouraged from sitting or kneeling. It is my opinion that the heavy decoration is a good thing. There is more for the senses to experience." (Here it comes...) "In fact, I think that Orthodox churches should go a step further. I can imagine smoke machines, thudding trance music, a giant strobe light crucifix descending from the ceiling it would be great."

More to come... Comments?

Dan Lauffer

LOL - I take it they've never been to (much less heard of) the great Gothic cathedrals (like Chartes), seen the tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe, heard real Gregorian chant at a monastery, etc., etc. ...

Comment 1. When did Annuciation 'dox? I guess if it isn't Mass (poorly done no less), it isn't Catholic.

Comment 2. "suppose the reason Catholics do not do likewise is because we believe in inward worship" This, in light of his earlier comments smacks (to me anyway) of gnosticism. At any rate, St Gregory Palamas would have words with this.

Comment 3. "All elements of the mass are dragged out to a near excruciating length" Only excruciating if one hates god, or hates to be with him for any length of time.

Comment 4. "because the congregation is discouraged from sitting or kneeling" We are discouraged from being Protestants and that form of service (one where the sermon is central), encouraged to worship with the whole body (three hours of standing minimum, as i opine), and discouraged from worshipping our rears. However, "thudding trance music" has a parallel aong the Ethiopians (if he thinks ours is long...hehehe).

Can't wait to read some others.