www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West From the Moscow Patriarchate

Alex,
Agreed that we should be careful about who we "dis" or offend but I think the UOC-KP and UAOC or "down" or cool with us

Dear UC,

I would agree to that, if I didn't disagree with it already

Again, it is not only a question of keeping Moscow happy by what goes on in Kyiv.

If that's the only thing going, then who cares? When it comes to Ukrainian affairs, Moscow won't always be completely happy .

My own view is that the most Christian approach of Ukrainian Catholics to their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers and sisters is to be respectful of them and sensitive to what bothers them.

Perhaps having a centre in Kyiv won't bother them.

But we won't know unless we ask the current Ukrainian Orthodox church authorities (obviously not in union with Moscow).

Can we be big enough to do that? To speak openly to one another on this sensitive score?

Can we look to our Orthodox Churches as to our Mother Church and treat it with a maternal respect?

Yes, I'll go to Kyiv myself and help mix the mortar if the Ukrainian Orthodox Church authorities say, "Welcome - we're O.K. with what you're planning."

And if that's been done, then hurrah.

Ultimately, I feel that we've been divided by our enemies, both East AND West, for too long.

It's time for us, Greek Catholic and Orthodox Ukrainians to think as brothers for that is what we are.

And brothers and sisters are ideally sensitive to one another feelings.

As for me, I would rather have one Ukrainian Orthodox Patriarchate in Kyiv uniting all Ukies.

All this infighting is unseemly ridiculous and downright distasteful.

Alex

Well, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church jurisdictions need to come together and unite to be a canonical Orthodox Church (I believe that the EP is sponsoring negotiations between them)

[ 08-07-2002: Message edited by: Brian ]

My point about the demographics was to illustrate that the majority of the population of Lviv was Polish (which at that time meant Roman Catholic). Greek Catholics were a minority, yet the Cathedral Church of the Greek Catholic Metropolitan was in that city.

The same will be the case in Kyiv.

About preaching in "extra-territorial" areas: if Catholic or Protestant missionaries are making an impact, then that is great. "Who has ears to hear, let him hear." Their work is reaching good ground.

I am done on this thread.

Daniil

Alex,
I can see where you are comming from now.

I am leaving for Toronto on Friday and if I make it to St. Nicholas this Sunday, then we will talk in person on this issue granted we don't start a huge brawl

Maybe Daniil can come to back me up with some dates and territorial facts

[ 08-07-2002: Message edited by: ukrainiancatholic ]

Dear UC,

As you can see, Daniil is royally dissed with me and has left this thread.

I hope he won't squeal on me to his mom and dad

The most important point of what I say here is that there is no "Imprimatur" or "Ex Cathedra" placed anywhere before, during or after my posts.

Therefore, I'm not imposing my views on anyone.

If we Ukies can't agree to exchange views without getting heated, then . . .

Anyway, that doesn't apply to you.

I'm taking a break from here since I'm dissing people left and right today. Bad karma, perhaps.

I won't be at St Nicholas this weekend. Did you want to check the bulletin board for Nik for a card addressed to him?

If you see it, please do take it and let Nik know.

Just don't read the back of it . . .

God bless and a great summer!

Alex

Sorry you won't be there this Sunday. Maybe I
will try to go to St. Elias. Is it worth the drive to Brampton ?

Alex, you didn't offend me really. I think its great though that we all want the same common thing for all Ukrainian churches, a united Kyivan Patriarchate.

[But we won't know unless we ask the current Ukrainian Orthodox church authorities (obviously not in union with Moscow).]

Alex, my dear friend. Why would you ask the two self proclaimed schismatic Orthodox Churches (that no canonical Orthodox Catholic Church recognizes) over the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church?

That would be like either the MP or the EP asking the opinion of the Transalpine Redemptorists or the followers of Archbishop Marcel LeFebvre their opinion over the canonical RCC.

Why the double standard?

OrthoMan

OrthoMan said: "Alex, my dear friend. Why would you ask the two self proclaimed schismatic Orthodox Churches (that no canonical Orthodox Catholic Church recognizes) over the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church?"

There is no canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine. There is a canonical Russian Orthodox Church-MP in Ukraine, but they do nothing but cause problems for Ukrainian Christians in Ukraine.

There are the UOC-KP and UAOC in Ukraine, uncanonical, yet Ukrainian and are for a United Kyivan and Canonical Church.

The Russian Orthodox Church-MP is canonical but difficult to work with and very controlling over many holy and historical Ukrainian spiritual sites.

Hello guys,
I think that if UOC-KP, UAOC and UGCC got toghether and proclaimed the Kievan Patriarchate, everyone would eventually regognize it,(some at the first start others may take a little longer). Of course Moscow would never regognize it. I think that they only really regognize themselves, and you know, that's fine with me. If the Russians that live in Ukraine want to have their church, that's OK!, but not a Moscow Patriarch that thinks he rules over Ukraine and Ukrainians.
I have a question. Do you think Rome and Constantinople would accept such a position? Does anybody know if their are or have been movements on this issue?
Lauro

Dear Orthoman,

Actually, no one blessed me to ask anyone about these things!

I'm speaking in ethnic terms alone here (yes, call me nationalist whatever ).

I know there are Ukrainian Orthodox who are ethnically Ukrainian in the UOC-MP, but I doubt the leadership would appreciate me talking Ukrainian cultural politics with them.

You yourself once confided to me that you believe the Ukrainian Orthodox Church should have its own Patriarchate etc.

I would settle for the UOC-MP using more Ukrainian and having a more pro-Ukrainian cultural perspective in its work.

That would go a long way with other Ukrainians, including Greek Catholics.

I have an uncle who had Met. Sabodan as a theology professor and has nothing but high praise for that deeply spiritual and knowledgeable man.

As do I and that Churchman would be my first choice for a canonically established Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Patriarchate.

If I'm any nicer, I'm going to get in trouble with my Ukie compatriots!

Alex

[ 08-07-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Dear Alex:

All this about Orthodox as opposed to Catholic territory is a somewhat moot point.

If this principal were applied on a purely rational basis then whole regiments of Bishops and Metropolitans would have to leave their so-called territories.

This would no doubt also include the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople who looks over a flock of about two hundred Christian faithful as opposed to several millions of the other faith.

Historic memory is a very potent thing and therefore does anyone doubt that the Greek Catholic Church has a historic right to a place at the centre of the Ukrainian nation.

Kyiv should be just like Jerusalem the more Patriarchs the merrier.


[perhaps I'm too flippant?]

defreitas

Aside from the Patriarchate issue, the documentation of the proselytism charges, and the Cathollic response make interesting reading:

http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/ne207012.htm

http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/ne207011.htm

http://www.catholic.ru:981/lib/ansang.html

djs

[You yourself once confided to me that you believe the Ukrainian Orthodox Church should have its own Patriarchate etc. ]

And I still feel that way. But it has to be done correctly according to the canons and by the Orthodox Catholics which is also what I stated. Rome or Ukrainian Catholic Hierachs negiotating with non canonical Orthodox Catholics only makes the problem worse.
Let the Orthodox settle their own conflicts. They are working on it. From the latest issue of the Orthodox Herald -

A meeting was held in Yalta on April 18-20 by representatives of the Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA and the Ukrainian Government to discuss the canonical regularization of the one united Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the Ukraine. Archbishop Vseveold from the American Church later met separately with officials of the Autocephalous Church (UAOC) and the UOC-MP.

I must admit I get a little tired and miffed at people here and elsewhere that pooh pooh the automony of the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church and still refer to it as the Moscow/Russian Church. And then turn around and claim the UCC is sui juris and independent from Rome followed by a complaint that the pope won't change or recognize their Cardinals title to that of Patriarch!
And these same people get really pissed if I refer to them as Eastern or Byzantine Rite Roman Catholics because of their sui juris status. But it is not supposed to bother me or other OC's when the automonous Ukrainian Orthodox Church is still referred to as the Moscow Russian Church. Once again, double standards.
Since both are supposed to be administratively independent they can have their Ukainian customs and traditions.
Alex, be honest, under Rome your Church is no more freer or indepndent than its canonical Ukrainian Orthodox counterpart.
As I told you before, big difference is that if the MP comes to Ukraine no UO Hierach has to kneel down and kiss his hand or foot. Can you or those who still call it the Moscow/Russian Church say the same thing about the Popes visit?

OrthoMan

The only Ukrainian Orthodox churches I know of are the KP and UAOC. I leave "canonical" to you Orthodox to argue over, as you tend to do with little resolution (ROCOR, Bulgarians, New Gracinica Serbs, Estonian Orthodox, Old Calendar Greeks, etc.). The ROCOR has its own opinions about the validity of the current MP heirarchy as well. I will give Patriarch Philaret of the KP the benefit of the doubt with regards to his being validly consecrated priest and later bishop.

The "Ukrainian" Orthodox Church/MP is directly subject to and controlled by Moscow. Moscow still approves and makes all episcopal appointments for Ukraine. That's pretty well known publicly both here and in Ukraine. I don't know why the MP even keeps up the charade of calling itself "Ukrainian" in Ukraine except for polemical value.

The Ukrainian Catholic Church has grown from 2 to 26 parishes in our new eparchy of Donetsk in Eastern Ukraine in about six weeks. I can't agree with you on the Kyiv issue Alex, but maintain that by returning to Kyiv we are returning to our place of origin as that was the seat and residence of Metropolitan Rahoza and many of his clergy when the union was proclaimed.

Geographically, if the growth continues in Eastern Ukraine at this rate, Kyiv will be the logical central point for the activities and administration of the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Ukraine. The location of the patriarchate in Kyiv also makes sense if the continued support of the Russian Catholic Church by the Ukrainian Catholic hierarchy is to continue.

If the MP cannot do its job in bringing the faithful to herself, it is noone's fault but hers. Especially considering the MP was legal during latter Soviet times. Alexei has cried "wolf" too many times on these issues, and the response from Rome indicates as much. If Rome would have listened to all of Alexei's cries for foul play, we would still not have St. George's and many other churches would still be in usurping MP hands. Thank God for all things and especially for the courage of our Patriarch to return to his ecclesial home.

[ 08-07-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]