www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Byzantine in an All ROMAN CATHOLIC TOWN

I'm feeling slapped in the face. The bishop here has permitted the following to be published in all the local parish bulletins,
"By its nature the Eucharist and all liturgical prayer is celebrated in *unity * of posture, gestures, prayers, responses, rubrics, and actions to express our *common* worship of our Savior." The stuff with asterisks on either side were in boldface on the document.

I'm one of just a handful of Byzantines in this town. I've been told, in rather haughty tones, that there aren't enough of us to justify any service to us at all. I've been told I am not allowed metanoia (crossing yourself while touching the ground), crossing myself in Byzantine style -- moving from right to left instead of from left to right, and other things the Holy Father has practically commanded us to KEEP DOING in Orientale Lumen.

My formation was Greek Orthodox. I want to be in Communion with the Bishop of Rome because isn't he Peter????!!!?!?!?! Yet I can understand perfectly why others are not in communion, when they are treated as second class citizens, unworthy of existence by workers in the only parishes here -- which are exclusively Roman Catholic.

I could attend the Orthodox Mission out here, but if I do that, I am not being obedient to the call to be in communion with Peter. I find this emotionally very difficult, especially as I have a child I *must* raise Byzantine, if I am reading Orientale Lumen correctly. I also WANT to pass my formation on to her, as she is an artist and the Roman styles do not help her in her relationship with Our Lord -- they are too clinical and distant and forbidding.

What we need in this town is a Byzantine Rite priest to come once a week when no other service is being done for the Divine Liturgy. There probably aren't enough of us to merit a whole parish, but couldn't someone spare us a priest for a DAY? I need to go to confession to someone who Knows why my fasting was wrong during Lent and that it really wasn't just me being too strict with myself. Someone who isn't confused when you mention St Pachomios as a great role model. . .someone who knows what the Philokalia is and why it's necessary.

Please forgive me for going on like a raving person -- but I actually got hostile looks at Mass today and yes, part of it is that my daughter is extremely special and doesn't behave in any kind of usual way sometimes (especially when she is moved by her love for Jesus), and then on top of it, I was having her watch Father (who is an ICON of CHRIST), during the Entrance of the Gospel, bow and cross -- which is only appropriate, at least in my Greek formation, and to do so at Christ's (in the form of the Gospel -- WORD of God and Priest) exit as well.

I think the only impression our fellow-Christians really got was that we were irritating and weird, which I don't mind so much, but I do mind negativity over trying to be obedient to the Pope. Sigh.

Thanks for listening. I have NO IDEA what to do about it.

I just wish we took vocations more seriously. We would have the priests and deacons we need if we took this area seriously.

But there seems to be more fear than faith. So what is to be done.

Can one get a dispensation to attend an Orthodox Church until such time as our metropolia gets serious about vocations?

Dan Lauffer

I wouldn't read more into the bulletin announcement than is there. If you cross yourself right-to-left while everyone else is going backwards , no one will notice unless they are too busy focusing on you than on the Lord.

Likewise, if you performa a metany upon entering the church, a pew, etc. I can't see anyone getting upset, considering that the current practice in the Latin church in the USofA seems to be either a genuflect, a sort-of-partial genuflection (curtsey?), a bow, a nothing-at-all, using right knee, but sometimes left knee, or maybe even no knee. A metany surely shouldn't cause an international incident.

If you cross yourself at the Gospel instead of doing the little triple forehead-mouth-heart thing that some, but not all (Where's that uniformity?) of the people around you do, I doubt that any one will notice.

Issues like standing when everyone else is kneeling are more problematic. I tend to cave in when confronted with such situations. "When in Rome, do as the Romans" and all that.

Ultimately, you are a guest in their church. You are from a sister church, and hence a sibling, but still a guest just as much as if you were visiting your biological brother or sister's home. The bottom line practical advice I tend to follow is this: If the roles were reversed, and they were visiting a Byzantine Church, would I be excessively distracted if they were not doing what I am doing at this point in the liturgy. If they crossed themselves backwards, I wouldn't care.

Look carefully next Sunday. You will find an enormous variety of postures, gestures, rubrical adherence, etc. Think of a symphony. Each player is doing something slightly different, but they are differences harmonize and the whole orchestra is still "all together." I would feel free to add my own notes to the harmony, but making sure I didn't hit any real clunkers that would cause everyone else to start playing off key.

Sorry for the rambling reply. I hope you found something helpful in here.

-- Ed

PS The clergy shortage is real. I don't think anyone is being haughty in telling you there are no priests to spare. It is just a sad commentary on the church today. Prayers for vocations are much in need.

I, too, have been asked to conform to the postures etc in the RC church in my town. Most Sundays I am able to travel to my Greek Catholic Church, 50 miles away, but on weekdays or on Sundays (like today---- snow and bad roads) when I attend here, I am expected to conform. The way the priest explained it to me was that especially on Sundays, we are a family that must be of one body, and that body is of one mind, and so our actions must be one of unity.

I have a bit of difficulty with his explanation, because I think we as Catholics in union with Rome ARE of one body and one mind .....but I "do what they do" when I'm there, even though it's hard. I really don't like holding hands during the Our Father (small town, and I don't want to be the subject of gossip for refusing). Except for the sign of the cross ... My hand just will not go backwards!

Walosi, my heart goes out to you... I hope you find an answer soon. I don't have any advice, but I think if I were in your position, I would write my bishop and ask his thoughts.

Oops, I meant to say "I would write the bishop of my eparchy" ... I would also write the diocesan bishop, perhaps he could provide you with insight and direction as well. At least you would be bringing the problem to his attention. My guess is that his directive was aimed at non-conformists in his diocese, not at the Byzantines!

So after saying that I had no advice, well, that's what I would do, so I guess that's advice!

I don't stand when kneeling is the way of doing things nor disrupt in any way. But when I cross myself, I have the unfortunate luck of being "corrected" and not all that nicely.

The problem is that the metanoi is attacked as incorrect or too different and the reason given is this new directive about the *Unity* of actions. We aren't talking standing when all others kneel, or trying to kneel for the Eucharist when the line needs to keep moving. We are talking about when I enter the church, go down a SIDE isle to be less conspicuous, and do my metanoia before entering the pew. This seems to so disturb that strangers feel the need to tell me that that is not the way it is done in a Catholic church. I may not be Roman, but I am Catholic and I resent the constant corrections.

This new message about how everyone needs to do everything the same is just going to make the frequency of "corrections" increase. The levels of ignorence of what is in the encyclicals and documents of the church is rediculous.

The "Haughty" response to my questions was from a Roman Catholic secretary in the parish offices. She did not want me to bother the priest with questions about how to keep my traditions alive while participating in this parish. She told me that there were not enough Byzantine Catholics in this town for anyone to care about the traditions and that I should just give it up and conform to Roman Catholic traditions.

Here the Holy Father in Rome is working to patch things up with the Eastern churches not in communion, and the local people are making out that to be in communion I must give up all the traditions of my rite and that as there are few of us, we don't count and should just give it up. I KNOW that they are wrong. I've read the encyclicals!

In this town, there is not a parish in communion with Rome that is Eastern. The nearest one is two hours away. If I am to attend Liturgy, it has to be here.

How will there ever be unity between the various rites when there is so much ignorence and prejudice against anything that is not Latin rite?

The way that many Roman Catholics are bigotted against all other Catholic rites is NOT the fault of the Pope, but a sign of the rebelliousness of the Catholics in the Latin rite.

This is just another example of what Patriarch + Lubomyr of the UGCC has said "The West does not know the East" Roman Caths are woefully ignorant of their Eastern Christian brethren!

Sorry, Walosi, this doesn't bother me at all.

When Romans go to a Byzantine church, they are expected to worship in Byzantine style (i.e. no genuflections, no crossing oneself from left to right, etc.). It would be quite rude, IMHO, for a Roman to do these things in a Byzantine church.

So why is it acceptable for a Byzantine to do such things in a Roman church?

Logos Teen

My, oh my, Walosi! This does sound to be a rather ugly situation.

With regard to the sign of the cross, I would just continue making it as you are accustomed. If someone tries to correct you, maybe you can try politely explaining that it is the way you have been taught, and then go over the symbolism of it all - the two fingers in the palm, the other two together with the thumb, the meaning of starting on the right, etc. While still putting on your best polite manners, tell the accuser that you are interested in learning the meaning behind his/her way. I doubt they will be able to do anything besides mumble and leave you alone.

With regard to the metany, I'm sure you could find people who don't genuflect, or who do the half-genuflect curtsey. Do the metany-police also correct people who are not genuflecting correctly, or those who make now sign of reverence at all? If not, it might be possible to ask them why not - although this will require a great deal of tact if you are not to be seen as confrontational.

Those of us in the Byzantine wasteland of the south sometimes have a tough go of it. Our mission parish is over an hour each way from my house. I have grown accustomed to the drive, but I don't think I could do two hours every week - but I would certainly try to do so at least monthly, if possible.

Finally, Teen, I must disagree with you. Mutual respect is certainly a two way street, but I would point out two problems with your analogy. First, it has never been my experience at an Eastern church to find anyone correcting someone's rubrical behavior, such as Walosi is having to endure. Secondly, there is a certain privilege that accompanies minority status. Walosi is attending the Roman parish out of necessity, and should be cut some slack on minor points as long as there is no underlying showmanship or grandstanding, which there does not seem to be in this case. In contrast, a Roman attending an Eastern church is almost certainly doing so out of curiosity or a desire to be better informed, and hence should be willing to adhere to the Eastern customs for this isolated visit. If not, I would have to wonder why they were in attendance.

-- Ed

Is it suggested that RC's visiting Eastern parishes follow their latin practices?

Axios

No one ever said the RCs have to come in making all of the Byzantine liturgical gestures. We do appreciate when they stand and not kneel, and do not create disruptions as some Latin Mass types do occasionally by insisting on kneeling even during times when it is forbidden. But that has been discussed extensively on other threads.

We don't intend to force the RCs to make the sign of the cross in a way that is unfamiliar but we do want them to know that we do it a different way and why we do it that way.

Likewise when I go to an RC service I do not wish to be a liturgical pariah and although I cross myself in the Byzantine way and bow when venerating, approaching communion, etc. mainly out of habit and reflex I will follow their movements of kneeling, sitting, etc. out of respect for their liturgical customs.

Dear Walosi, according to the National Council of Catholic Bishop's document "Eastern Catholics in the USA" the Roman bishops are to assist the Eastern Catholic faithful maintain their traditions in areas where there are no Eastern Catholic faithful.

Likewise Pope John Paul II in Orientale Lumen instructs the RCs that they must come to know and understand the Eastern Catholics. After all, it is us that makes the Catholic Church really Catholic. Without us she is only Roman and not truly diverse and universal.

Dear Walosi,

I am truly sorry to hear of the difficulty that you are experiencing in one our Latin parishes. While the aphorism that when in Rome... is useful to remember, the fact that a Catholic from another Church is simply bowing and making the sign of the cross differently does not warrant observation or comment.

I am disturbed that the office staff in that parish is determining who should or should not visit or speak to the priest. It is unconscionable that a secretary should try to select the topic of conversation about which it is proper to speak to a priest.

It must be an extremely difficult thing to endure. I just wanted you to know that many Roman Catholics cannot genuflect for medical reasons and thus it should not cause comment that you do not do so. That someone would comment on how you make the sign of the cross is especially troubling. Why, I wonder, should any of my brothers and sisters watch to see that?

I hesitate to make suggestions, but I feel compelled to make a couple. Make an appointment to speak with the priest. You are under no obligation to tell the secretary what you need to talk to him about. If she refuses, can you speak to him after Mass? If that is not feasible, check with the office of the Vicar for the area in which the parish is located and see if he can get you an appointment or explain your situation to the pastor for you.

I would be surprised if guidelines issued in the bulletin are specifically aimed at you. There might be some difficulty that the Bishop is dealing with and you might have been caught in the process.

I agree that much needs to be done to educate Western Christians about the Eastern and Oriental Churches. In this instance, ignorance is not bliss.

I am glad that this Forum exists and provides a place where we can all interact. I am also happy that Anthony Dragani shares information about the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches on EWTN's site.

Again, I am saddened by your experience with some of my Latin brothers and sisters.

Steve

Dear Teen,

I am saddened by this. It bothers me greatly that a situation like this exists. One of the characteristics of believers, I believe, is hospitality to the stranger among us. It is enjoined on us by that which we are taught in the Bible. How much more should we extend hospitality with our brothers and sisters?

How will they know us all as Christians by our love if we behave like this over bows and signs of the cross?

Thanks for hearing me out!

Steve

Thank you for your kind words.

-----National Council of Catholic Bishop's document "Eastern Catholics in the USA" ----

Please, Where do I find this document?