www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West What councils are binding upon Byzantines!

Mor Ephrem,
What the Muslims teach is major concern to us even if it's not Christianity, Big Guy. Do you prefer to keep your eyes & ears shut in the face of Islamic reality & militancy? The reality is that they are promoting iconoclasm and your churches were never immune and have faced countless times of persecutions. Do you understand this much at least? You should read up on your own history especially during Islamic imperialism. I do read up from time to time when Islamic/Hindos radicals destroy one of your churches be it in Egypt or India. Perhaps you do not view your church as an icon of the Holy Trinity. Perhaps you do not care and perhaps the position of the Seventh Ecumenical Council should not be binding on you guys as the militants tear you to pieces. Maybe you should spend some time in Egypt.
Your exageration about us rejecting icons is an utterly lie, Big Guy. Do you need a flight ticket to visit our Orthodox Patriarchates to know who we are? Try visiting a local Orthodox church. I think you need to spend some time reading your (& our) history. Don't think for a moment that the divisions between the iconodules and iconoclasts were not influenced by Islam. The iconoclasts fell from grace and attacked the theology of the Incarnation. You need to stop playing "hide & go think about it" on the importance and significane of the 4th-7th Ecumenical Councils. To disect or severe the Orthodox teachings from within these Ecumenical Councils is an absurdity. I have no worries that one day you will accept the 4th-7th as Ecumenical without coming back to me and saying "we weren't there". The truth is we are here and no excuse for you to consider them not ecumenical. Acceptance of the latter Ecumenical Councils will not probably alternate your Cyrillian theology but complement what we have always believed. Think as long as you like but the ecumenicity of these councils remain. You are invited to to pray about it and consider the truth of the matter. You will need to know & feel the comfort of the Holy Spirit in these ecumenical councils that were not done in the presence of your ancestors (who are my ancestors as well). Only the Holy Spirit will lead us to the unity we had before our miscommunications & separations.

In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. One God, Amen.

We know our history and not just the relation with “Islamic imperialism” as you put it but also with Roman/Vatican imperialism and persecution also. The problem I detect in your presentation is that you are generalizing the experience of one tradition and applying it to others. In our case the Muslims were not the oppressor but were the oppressed. The Muslims were the ones who were relegated to second class citizenship and the Muslims are the ones who get influenced by our religion and not vice versa. The Muslims never had any affect on the way we make our icons. So as Mor Ephmre aptly put it you guy's decision may be Orthodox and a good decision but it is nevertheless a decision that has not historical relevance for us.

Zayuk ya seedee,
I have never known the Muslims to be oppressed in the entire history of the Oriental Orthodox Church! Are you sure you know what you are talking about? I have always known it was the Oriental Orthodox who were to become the oppressed after the Islamic invasions. Your librators became your very own oppressors.
This topic is not about how you make icons! You got the wrong thread. Make note of this:
Islam = Iconoclasism. They do not believe God became man. Do you blame them for demolishing your churches throughtout the ages?!

What I said in regards to the 4th-7th Ecumenical Councils has spiritual ramifications and this is what you people are ignoring and not taking seriously. Not Rome or nor Orthodoxy will ever concede to having ONLY three ecumenical councils.

Has this thread gone astray? Doesn't seem to be about ecumenical councils. Maybe a new thread could be opened to discuss Muslims?

So let's all have a Fourth Ecumenical Council in order to settle our differences and reunite. Then there won't be ONLY three.

Going back to your earlier post, I almost don't want to answer back, because I think we're talking past each other, so I'll just say what I have to say, and then I think I'm done.

What the Muslims teach is major concern to us even if it's not Christianity, Big Guy. Do you prefer to keep your eyes & ears shut in the face of Islamic reality & militancy? The reality is that they are promoting iconoclasm and your churches were never immune and have faced countless times of persecutions. Do you understand this much at least? You should read up on your own history especially during Islamic imperialism.

Admittedly, I am not the most bright when it comes to the history of the Oriental Orthodox and the Muslims. My Church is the Indian Church, and we've never had problems with Muslims, to my knowledge. But what I do know is, while our Churches may not be immune, and though we've endured our share of persecutions, we've NEVER had a problem with icons the way you guys did.

I do read up from time to time when Islamic/Hindos radicals destroy one of your churches be it in Egypt or India.

To my knowledge, no Orthodox churches have been destroyed by Islamic or Hindu radicals in India. I don't think this has happened to any church in Kerala. When it does happen, it is rare, and where it does happen, it is mostly in Northern India.

Perhaps you do not view your church as an icon of the Holy Trinity. Perhaps you do not care and perhaps the position of the Seventh Ecumenical Council should not be binding on you guys as the militants tear you to pieces. Maybe you should spend some time in Egypt.

Oh boy, you're not even listening. NO ONE IS DENYING THE ORTHODOXY AND UNIVERSALLY APPLYING NATURE OF THE DOCTRINE ON ICONS EXPRESSED BY THE "SEVENTH ECUMENICAL COUNCIL". WHAT WE DENY IS THAT THE COUNCIL ITSELF WAS ECUMENICAL.

Your exageration about us rejecting icons is an utterly lie, Big Guy.

I'm sorry...were you guys not the ones who had enough problems accepting icons that you needed a whole "Seventh Ecumenical Council" to clean up the mess?

Do you need a flight ticket to visit our Orthodox Patriarchates to know who we are? Try visiting a local Orthodox church.

I go to one every Sunday. What's your point?

Don't think for a moment that the divisions between the iconodules and iconoclasts were not influenced by Islam. The iconoclasts fell from grace and attacked the theology of the Incarnation.

Alright, so those divisions were caused by Islam. We haven't let Islam get to us that badly. Why do you think we cannot handle our own affairs? Why are we seen as the "child" that Byzantium feels she needs to hold by the hand in order to walk her across the street? We have been handling our own affairs since around AD 451, and we've done pretty well.

You need to stop playing "hide & go think about it" on the importance and significane of the 4th-7th Ecumenical Councils. To disect or severe the Orthodox teachings from within these Ecumenical Councils is an absurdity.

You need to stop assuming things. No one is dissecting or severing the Orthodox teachings of those councils. The only thing we have an issue with is the fact that they are ecumenical. We don't think so. I'll give you this...should there ever come a day when, in order to reestablish full communion, we decide to be the bigger man and accept those councils, they will be ecumenical. But until then, why don't you guys ever think of the possibility that maybe, in this situation regarding the ecumenical status of those councils, you are wrong?

"Oh, but WE could NEVER be wrong..."

I have no worries that one day you will accept the 4th-7th as Ecumenical without coming back to me and saying "we weren't there". The truth is we are here and no excuse for you to consider them not ecumenical.

I have no reason to doubt that one day, we will all accept councils eight through twenty-one (or four through twenty-one) as ecumenical, without coming back here and saying "we weren't there". The truth is, the Latins were there, and there is no excuse for us to not consider them ecumenical.

Bull. (No offence to the Catholics)

You will need to know & feel the comfort of the Holy Spirit in these ecumenical councils that were not done in the presence of your ancestors (who are my ancestors as well).

How will we feel the comfort of the Holy Spirit in these councils? They comfort those Orthodox who had problems which were solved by those councils. We had no problem, we have no need of that particular comfort.

You say that our ancestors were your ancestors as well. So how come you're not one of us? Just curious.

Mor Ephrem,
My roots go way back to the Ghassanid tribe(Arab "Monophysites") of southern Jordan before there was an Indian Orthodox establishment. I understand the Byzantines and I am in full agreement with them.

This discussion between us does not make sense if you do not know Islamic history and your very own history.

There is no need to continue with this discussion until you comprehend the issues I raised. Pray and research it for your own self.
You should know better not to throw in the Latins "ecumenical councils" but I think you fallen prey to relativism. Please check in with the hiearchs of the nearest Oriental Orthodox Church for your information. The Copts are the best source.

Yes I know what I am talking about. Do you know what you are talking about? In Ethiopia, until 1974, Orthodox Christianity was the State Religion. Islam as such was the ones who were oppressed and not vise versa. Their holidays were not acknowledged and thus were not publicly recognized holidays. They were the ones who had to change their names to more Christian-like names for social mobility, etc. Islam, while of course having periodic wars with Christians in Ethiopian history never ruled Ethiopia and never oppressed Ethiopian Christians. So again, I think you need to quit generalizing.

You must be a recovering Muslim from Ethopia! lol. That is news to me within Ethopia. I certainly do not accept reverse discrimination. Indeed discrimination is wrong. However, the majority of the Islamic world have persecuted and discrimnated against us since their forsaken arrival. Why don't you try living in Pakistan, Egypt, Sudan, Afghanistan, Iran, Saudia Arabia, etc since you think the Muslims are not the oppressors! You may like the roasting sun and the people. Even where I am from in Jordan (western ally) the discrimination has always been present. But we have to eat sh_t and pretend everything is good between us. Have you ever given consideration to the Copts who adopted Islamic names in order to attain jobs & live a peaceful life and to avoid discrimination? The minor case of discrimination against Muslims does not amount to the crap we as Arab/Oriental Christians had to endure. Your originally Patriarchate of Egypt has much to say of their treatment under the Islamic barbarianism. Open your eyes by taking of your comfortamble and shady sunglasses.

You are a very ignorant dhimmi, if you are or were one, when it comes to knowing the history of Middle Eastern Christianity. What religion do you belong to? Are you a Dhimmi?

May Allah convert the whole forsaken Middle East to Christ. Inshallah ya rub! May Islamic holidays cease to be promoted and their lies about Christ come to an abrupt end. May all Muslims have Christian names and accept Christ as their Lord & Savior. How do you like that! I like that!

I think I have verbal whiplash...

Shlomo khoolhoon,
The point that our brothers from the Oriental Orthodox Churches are making is that in their Churches eyes the 4th-7th Councils (Catholic/Eastern Orthodox) and 8th-21st (Catholic) are not recognized because their bishops did not participate in them. Therefore, to them they are just "local" Church Councils that took care of particular issues that those Churches were dealing with, and not something that the entire Apostolic Church.

Rum Orthodox, I have to say that you owe both Mor Ephrem and Aklie Semaet and apology. They are correct on what they are saying about Muslim/Christian relations in Ethiopia and India. Further, it was totally uncalled for to call either one a Dhimmi. As a Maronite I know full well what Muslim repression is all about, but also as a Maronite I know the sins that my people have done against the Muslims when we gained power.

Below a link to the joint communique of the Assyrian and Chaldean Churches on their efforts at reunion. What is important to notice is that they are working to bring Christ's Church together, not pull it apart. Please read and reflect.

http://www.cired.org/east/0307_joint_communique.pdf

Poosh BaShlomo khoolhoon,
Yuhannon

Rum Orthodox,

This is Pope Justin.

For the most part I suppose where ever Islam became the dominate religion, the Christians of those particular regions would suffer as a minority group, as is usually the case.

I think in Ethiopia however - if memory serves me correct - The prophet Mohammed himself ordered that Ethiopia be treated with respect and not conquered, do I believe, to some type of help the Ethiopian Christians provided to some of his Islamic army at one point. Health & comfort or something?

But you seem to equate oppression with lack of divine institution i.e. the Islamic religion or any religion as an institution. This is interesting. Why? Because much of Christian history is intertwined with the oppression of other people - baptized or not.

Does the era of the Church Fathers, an era in which Christians practiced slavery under the blessing of the Church Fathers, mean that Christianity - East & West - is without divine institution? What about early Christian women in head gear and ankle low dresses not allowed to participate in their society as they do today in the West?

Justin

In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. One God, Amen.

You must be a recovering Muslim from Ethopia!

Again, simplistic statements from the simple minded. Nothing new under the sun.

Boy oh boy, I don't run into Arab uncle toms that often. I know in a previous post you expressed your anger and disrespect for your parents (calling them wannabes) so I am wondering who in the world raised you and how often did they drop you on your head? Who ever it was seems to be one of these families that collaborated with British imperialism? I think some of their values have rubbed off on you.

I have made it clear time and that I am simply opposed to oppression, no matter who does it. No matter if it is opposition to Jews who oppress Palestinians, Arabs who oppress Jews, Christians who oppress Muslims or Muslims who oppress Christians; Whites who oppress Blacks or Blacks that oppress other Blacks. I am against oppression period. You are obviously opposed to oppression on a conditional basis. You hate it when it originated from Muslims and is directed towards Christians but you are ok when it is the reverse.

Yes I am aware that our Coptic brothers and sisters are oppressed by Muslims. I have also read many of the statements by His Holiness Pope Shenouda on this matter. However, I have never read any statement by him on this matter wherein he makes chauvinistic, hateful, and ignorant remarks about Muslims as you just have. He even still supports the struggle of the Palestinians against occupation and the barbaric rule of your friends in Israel.

You also don't need to remind me of the situation in the Sudan to prove how oppressive Muslims can be. But I need to point something out to you. If you ask the average African to give you his opinion of the situation in the Sudan they will usually reply that it is either racist Arabs oppressing and enslaving Blacks or they will say that it is a bunch of African wannabe Arabs oppressing Blacks. They generalize and judge all Arabs from the Sudanese situation, including you. Do you think that is fair for you to be castigated in that light because of what some other “Arabs” do in the name of Islam? Nor is it fair for you to generalize on Muslims and express your obvious hatred for them.

I did not make my comments to deny what Muslims do to Christians in areas where Muslims rule. If you read most of my other posts on topics such as this than you would know that all I intend to say is that two rights don't make a right. Just because Arab Muslims oppress Coptic Christians in Egypt does not make it ok for Ethiopian Christians to oppress Ethiopian Muslims in Ethiopia.

But I can see why so many Oriental Orthodox are skeptical about the possibility of unity with the other Churches. Who in the world would want to co-exist in a Church with a hateful and mean spirited bigot like you? The worst of your hatefulness is manifested by your apparent self-hatred. Genuine Christianity in contrast is based on love…

Until you mature and learn how to communicate respectfully, intellectually and with a good heart than I have no more to say to you or time to waste on you. My Brother Mor Ephrem took out a significant amount of time trying to educate you but you are simply closed minded, ignorant and arrogantly ignorant. Mor Ephrem, please save your wisdom for someone who is sober enough to benefit from it.

Selam Justin,

It is good to hear from you. I hope that your trip and break was a success and you got all you intended out of it.

You are correct about Prophet Muhammad's period of refuge in Ethiopia. As he fled from his people in Arabia he found safety across the ocean in Africa. He made some pretty favorable and memorable comments about Ethiopians.

Now out of all the areas in Northeast Africa that had a flourishing Christianity in ancient times (Egypt, Ethiopia, Chad, and the Sudan) only in Ethiopia did it survive so strongly. The rest fell to Islam for the most part.

But Rum does not understand these things. His comment about Muslims changing their names is reminiscent of some southern rednecks (no offense brother Cizinec) during slavery tying an African to a pole a whipping him until he accepted "Christian' names like Toby and became a good God fearing Christian. Africans have had enough of this arrogance and I doubt Arabs would wish for it to be imposed on them.

Hello Aklie,

It is good to see you posting again too - since your an expert on history - and thank you for your kind regards. I'm doing fine.

I think it must be something about our human nature to want generalize people. I fallen into this trap at times myself. Rum seems to be full of anger at everything he seems to see as outside of EO.

I think the point you had made about not everything in Christian history happening inside Rome and Constantinople was a good one.

Justin

Dear Ed:

Why not ask your priest??? He'd be a better source than any Internet message board (even one as august as this one ).

Also: Why wouldn't you want to accept the other 14? What's so horrible about them -- for a Catholic, I mean?

I know some people (both Protestants and Orthodoxy) regard papal infallibility as a Horrible Thing, but for a Catholic (who understands what the dogma really means) it's a tremendous gift and blessing, not a threat. EC Father Hal Stockert makes this point in an article on his website. I'll try to dig it up for you.

Blessings,

ZT