www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Holy Tradition ---same or not the Same for EC/OC

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I was under the impression that much of the same Holy Tradition was accepted by both Rc/EC and Orthodox Christians until now. I responded to Dr Carroll on EWTN when he was asked a question about the brothers of Christ by referring him to an excellent book ---The Life of the Virgin Mary--- published by Holy Dormition Convent in Colorado. In the book the name of St Joseph the Beloved's first wife is shown as being known to the Early Church as were those of his Children. I noted that this was so commonly held in the church that Roman Catholic Renaissance artists depicting the flight to Egypt even placed St James, the brother of the Lord, leading the donkey just as it is written in the earlier tradional sources for the church.

The response that I got was "there is no historical evidence of this" and his citing a personal belief of Blessed Augustine that Joseph was ever-virgin. He added the very recent modern belief that Joseph was probably about 20 years old. How contrary to the commonly held tradition of the Eastern Church and the Orthodox teachings about St Joseph the Betrothed and his entire relationship to the Holy Theotokos. To deny these Traditions seems to me to be tantamount to denying the Presentation of the Theotokos and other feasts, not to mention commonly held Traditions about St Joseph, his piety, age, and holiness that we celebrate that are not based scripturally but rather on Holy Tradition.

What is the position held about these in the Roman Catholic Church, the Byzantine Catholic Churches, and the other Eastern Churches? It greatly saddened me to see so highly regarded orthodox Roman Catholic Historian as Dr. Carroll to so openly , with disdain , deny Holy Tradition.

I would greatly appreciate your feedback.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: Thomas ]

Thomas -

I wouldn't worry much about Dr. Carroll's views. He doesn't know very much at all about the Eastern Churches and is often rather knee-jerk anti-Eastern. His view is not representative of many in Catholicism, thankfully, but it is instructive to remember him when Catholics tax the Orthodox with not being tolerant enough of the Western tradition.

Brendan

Thomas,

On the other hand, everything you mention is pious opinion and not a matter of Revelation.

K.

Dear Thomas,

Devotion to St Joseph is something that first developed in the East and was developed in the West only much later on.

Following the deutero-canonical New Testament books, the same source from which the Feast of the Entrance into the Temple and others are derived, St Joseph was indeed a widower of venerable age whose marriage to the Holy Theotokos was "arranged" by the Temple High Priest when she was 14 at which point her parents, Sts. Joachim and Anna, were no longer alive.

The icon of St Joseph in the East portrays him as a man of great faith and obviously of mature age.

The focus is on the Theotokos and Her Divine Child Whose Father is God alone.

The deutero-canonical books of the New Testament times do contain information about aspects of the lives of Jesus and Mary and others that are included in the Church's liturgy but are not the subject of proclamation as the Gospel is proclaimed.

One example is the way in which the Mother of God is portrayed in icons with the Christ-Child.

I always thought this to be a natural position for icon-writers to depict the Theotokos.

In fact, the Gospel of the Birth of Mary relates that the Theotokos found that so many people were being healed by touching Her Baby, She made it a habit to carry Him around always on Her right arm since so many people were coming forward to touch Him as She held Him out.

That is what She is doing on most Icons of Her as we have them today - She is holding Him out to bless us with Her Baby, just as the Icon of Christ depicts Him blessing us with His Hand.

The West tended to follow Eastern devotion in many respects, but in the Middle Ages, new western devotional perspectives developed.

There was an emphasis on the Humanity of Christ, His Wounds, His Wounded Heart, His Precious Blood etc.

Devotion to St Joseph was emphasized to form him into a new role model for men, fathers and even celibate clergy.

He was portrayed not as an elderly man, but as a virile, robust man with strong hands and arms as befitted a carpenter providing for his family.

Again, this change of devotional emphasis came about by means of popular devotion approved by the Latin Church and there is nothing wrong with that as such.

In the East, devotion to St John the Baptist in the liturgy celebrated his birth without original sin, having been sanctified at the Visitation. This was never a doctrine as such but is in the liturgical books and therefore has a solid weight behind it. Both East and West accept this, but again without formally "defining" it.

St Nicholas as well, owing to the great devotion to him, was thought of being sanctified at some point in the womb of his mother, as his services indicate. Again, this is not defined but is a devotional expression.

In the West, with the great flowering of devotion to St Joseph, the theological field of "Josephology" came about.

In the West, St Joseph seemed to overtake John the Baptist, even though the Roman Litany of Saints always invoked the Baptist ahead of him.

Theologically, however, the Roman Church understood the veneration of the Virgin Mary in terms of "Hyperdulia" and that of St Joseph as "Protodulia" or primacy of veneration, meaning that Joseph was ahead of all the Saints and directly after the Theotokos and the Angels.

Popular western devotion also saw him as being conceived without sin and also assumed into heaven. There are western religious associations that promote the cause of the definition of St Joseph's Immaculate Conception and Assumption into Heaven.

Also popular was the devotion to the Holy Heart of Joseph and St Joseph was depicted in art with his heart exposed on his chest, as were Jesus and Mary.

At least one Pope had the "Holy Hearts of Jesus, Mary and Joseph" on his papal coat of arms that I've seen in a collection of heraldry.

St Joseph became the patron of a number of causes, including a good death (since he must have died with Jesus and Mary by his side) and of workers (thus the feast of St Joseph the Worker and patron of unions on May 1st).

He is the patron of Canada and we have the miraculous Shrine of St Joseph of Mount Royal in Montreal where there are many depictions of St Joseph in various roles and in his various patronages.

As Kurt says quite correctly, the Church of both East and West allows for much in devotions that is of a pious and popular nature, but that doesn't contradict revealed truth.

Our Eastern devotion to St Nicholas far outstrips the honour given to him by the West and the reverse is true for St Joseph.

One difference between East and West here though is that the Western theology of devotion is sometimes built not on any Patristic or other sources from the early years of Christianity, but on the basis of a philosophical/theological speculative approach.

So popular western devotion to St Joseph and what it posits about his role and person in the Divine Economy of salvation is often based on "it would befit someone so close to Jesus and Mary to be . . ."

And yes, I once read a Roman theologian openly attack the Feast of the Entrance of the Most Holy Theotokos into the Temple as "groundless" and he even suggested it be dropped from the Roman calendar.

The deuterocanonical tradition of the New Testament is not "groundless" but the New Testament itself seems to assume that we are reading not only the inspired books, but the deuterocanonicals as well.

The episode with Nathaniel in the first chapter of John is only intelligible against the backdrop of the episode noted in the Birth of Mary where Nathaniel's mother brings him, as a baby, to lay him under the sycamore tree on the crib of the Baby Jesus to heal him of a disease that killed his brother. He was instantly healed and remembered this all his life.

When Jesus told him about seeing him under the sycamore tree, Nathaniel realized that Jesus was the miracle-working baby who healed him and this is why he began to extoll Christ in the Gospel as he did.

Alex

[I noted that this was so commonly held in the church that Roman Catholic Renaissance artists depicting the flight to Egypt even placed St James, the brother of the Lord, leading the donkey just as it is written in the earlier tradional sources for the church.
The response that I got was "there is no historical evidence of this" and his citing a personal belief of Blessed Augustine that Joseph was ever-virgin. He added the very recent modern belief that Joseph was probably about 20 years old. How contrary to the commonly held tradition of the Eastern Church and the Orthodox teachings about St Joseph the Betrothed and his entire
relationship to the Holy Theotokos.]

Most Roman Catholics I know don't put much faith in what Dr Carroll has to say. They just shake their head when his name comes up.

==================================================

Excerpts from the Protoevangelium of James -

http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/gospels/gosjames.htm

IX. 1 And Joseph cast down his adze and ran to meet them, and when they were gathered together they went to the high priest and took their rods with
them. And he took the rods of them all and went into the temple and prayed. And when he had finished the prayer he took the rods and went forth and
gave them back to them: and there was no sign upon them. But Joseph received the last rod: and lo, a dove came forth of the rod and flew upon the bead
of Joseph. And the priest said unto Joseph: Unto thee hath it fallen to take the virgin of the Lord and keep her for thyself. 2 And Joseph refused, saying:
I HAVE SONS AND I AM AN OLD MAN, but she is a girl: lest I became a laughing-stock to the children of Israel. And the priest said unto Joseph: Hear the Lord
thy God, and remember what things God did unto Dathan and Abiram and Korah, how the earth clave and they were swallowed up because of their
gainsaying. And now fear thou, Joseph, lest it be so in thine house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her to keep her for himself. And Joseph said unto
Mary: Lo, I have received thee out of the temple of the Lord: and now do I leave thee in my house, and I go away to build my buildings and I will come
again unto thee. The Lord shall watch over thee.

XVII. 1 Now there went out a decree from Augustus the king that all that were in Bethlehem of Judaea should be recorded. And Joseph said: I WILL RECORD MY SONS: but this child, what shall I do with her ? how shall I record her ? as my wife ? nay, I am ashamed. Or as my daughter? but all the children of
Israel know that she is not my daughter. This day of the Lord shall do as the Lord willeth. 2 And he saddled the she-ass, and set her upon it, and his son
led it and Joseph followed after. And they drew near (unto Bethlehem) within three miles: and Joseph turned himself about and saw her of a sad
countenance and said within himself: Peradventure that which is within her paineth her. And again Joseph turned himself about and saw her laughing, and
said unto her: Mary, what aileth thee that I see thy face at one time laughing and at another time sad ? And Mary said unto Joseph: It is because I behold
two peoples with mine eyes, the one weeping and lamenting and the other rejoicing and exulting.

Dear Orthoman,

I really don't know anything about Dr. Carroll, apart from what I've heard of him here.

He is entitled to believe about St Joseph as he does, and his pious views would be entirely acceptable to the Orthodox Church as such.

It is truly a shame that he seems to want to deny the Eastern Church the same rights, even when we have a much more ancient tradition that is actually grounded in deuterocanonical writings and liturgical celebration.

Alex

Dr. Carrol once spoke at a parish here in Dallas on the "Protestant Revolt." I went with a friend (he and I are both Protestant converts) and my friend brought along his Protestant brother and his brother's friends. Unfortunately Carrol was so caustic and selective with his history that the night turned into a disaster. My friends brother has been open to learning more about the Catholic faith prior to that talk but I am afraid the damage done that night has turned him off to any inquiry for a while.

It is fair to say Dr Carroll is Rome-centric and not sympathetic to the Orthodox-oriented among us. But his comments quoted here seem relatively tame and, in fact, in the realm of allowable opinion and not dogma. St Joseph seems to be a forgotten man in Orthodox piety.

http://oldworldrus.com

Hi Alex,

Alex:The episode with Nathaniel in the first chapter of John is only intelligible against the backdrop of the episode noted in the Birth of Mary where Nathaniel's mother brings him, as a baby, to lay him under the sycamore tree on the crib of the Baby Jesus to heal him of a disease that killed his brother. He was instantly healed and remembered this all his life.

When Jesus told him about seeing him under the sycamore tree, Nathaniel realized that Jesus was the miracle-working baby who healed him and this is why he began to extoll Christ in the Gospel as he did.

Tom: What text tells of this story? I never heard it before.

Thanks before hand.

Tom

Dear Tom,

It is in the deuterocanonical book of the "Birth of Mary" and also, I believe, in the "Gospel of Nicodemus."

The Assyrians highly regard these books and I believe they had at one time venerated them as scripture.

One can find these on the "Noncanonical homepage."

Again, what we know about St Andrew, St Joseph, the Presentation of our Lady also comes from these books and our liturgy is based on them.

Serge is right that we don't have as great a devotion to St Joseph as the West. But we should and the Shrine of St Joseph of Mount-Royal in Canada can serve to inspire us all here.

There is an Akathist to St Joseph and the other liturgical services can help as well.

Byzantine Catholic Churches have introduced new feasts of St Joseph into their calendars. The Ukrainian Catholic Church created the feast of "the holy Family" on the day after Christmas to include St Joseph. The Melkites included the Feast of the "Dormition of St Joseph" on March 19th.

St Joseph is honoured by the entire East at Christmas and the Presentation in the Temple as well as on the Sunday after the Nativity.

My favourite phrase about St Joseph is that he was the "man God called 'father.'"

God bless,

Alex

[ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

To our New Calendar Friends, tighten the Belt and enter into the high fast of Nativity for on 12-20 we observe the feast of St.Ignatios of Antioch and complete the Nativity Fast in full zeal and observation for the next 4 days till we partake of Holy Communion on the day of the Nativity.

To our Old Calendar Friends, enjoy the Feast of St Nicholas make sure your shoes, stockings or basket have been laid out for his blessings---remember that the apple you recieve has two spiritual meanings the red peel to remember the blood of Christ, the white flesh inside the purity of the blessed Theotokos; the orange represented the resurrection; the nut the wisdom of St Nicholas when he prepared the people of Myra by telling them to store up for a famine that was coming, and of course the Candy Cane a reminder of the Good Shepherd.

Now the reason for my response, tonight as I read the EWTN Questions and answers, Dr Carroll admitted that there was more than one catholic belief about the children of St Joseph---an acknowledgement of that long held tradition from the east.

Your brother in Christ.
Thomas

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: Thomas ]

Dear Friends:

We have to remember that Dr. Carroll is a convert to Catholicism. As such, he has fully embraced what he thinks is taught by the Roman Catholic Church in rejection of his former beliefs. As such he is not really open to anything that is difference from those teachings.

I have found this to be true of most converts, they tend to embrace 100% of their new faith and rect 100% of the old, and of all that is not in the new.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Regarding the use of the word brother in ancient Israel at the time of our Lord; it was used to denote both a biological brother and a male first cousin. If we think about the close relationship that first cousins share it is easy to understand the use of the term brother. In my own view it is as if my first cousins are my brothers.

I can only recount my own experience with the difference between Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic and Orthodox faiths. I was raised a Roman Catholic but I am a Byzantine. The pastor at the local Greek Catholic Church noted in a converation that he is not to poach on other Catholics but I and my family were invited to his Church as we are Greek & Catholic's and that would be our historic church; the only thing I needed to do was register. He wondered at all the Greeks that seemed to have ended up in the Roman Catholic Church and thought that as there had been few Greek Catholic Church's in the area during the inital immirgration they must have lost many of the congragation and noted I'd be the only Greek Catholic in his parish. The pastor at a Greek Orthodox Church in conversation with me noted that I am my family were welcome to join the congragation without anything more than registering as members. Now I know that on paper we are supposed to go through some process but if one has contact with a good pastor all impediments are nothing. This is not following the rules but the rules seem so silly as we are all Christian.

In our family they tell of Catholic Church's being hidden in warehouses in Athens and Greek Cities as the Turk saw the Catholic's as a threat that was linked to the West and one that might provide intelligence and aide to the Weat to defeat the Turk. My cousin visited Athens on vacation and in a tour saw Cathoilic Churchs hidden in Buildings and warehouses to avoid the snare of the Turk. The great differnce between the Orthodox Greek and the Catholic Greek was that one aided the other to hide his Church in a conspiracy of hearts. False history books say that the Orthodox drove the Catholic out but it was generations of oppression by the Turk and his hatred of the Western oriented Catholics that lead to the Catholic immirgration to the West and not the cooperation of the Orthodox and his Brothers in Faith! The Orthodox had hid us and our faith in a sea of Greeks!

[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: Angelus ]

Yup. For most Greeks, it's a question of "the blood". Greeks are Greeks, and if you're Greek then you deserve the protection of the patrida. It was this mentality that had the Greeks hide the Greek Jews during the Nazi occupation.

Although there is the "official" side of all this jurisdictional stuff, the fact is when a Greek neighbor is in need, the other Greeks come to his/her aid.

When visiting the local Greek Orthodox Church for their fall festival (Philoptochos/Ladies Guild event), I was talking with the President of the Guild. She was very welcoming of the folks from the "Slovak Church" (as the local Ruthenian parish is identified), but when she found out I was Greek, she punched me in the arm and said that I should be going there -- Catholic or not.

It's the blood.

As for 'traditions', most ethnic groups will carry some of their traditions with them when they move on. But, it seems that most immigrants in the US and Canada will begin to assume the customs of others, especially when they are in harmony with the native traditions. The 'creche' of the Italian St. Francis, the candle-decorated tree of the Germans, the Yule of the English, the Santa Klaus of the Dutch, the candle in the window of the persecuted Irish Catholics (who used it as a sign for underground priests that they would be welcome), and all the other wonderful things that we associate with Christmas. Same with Thanksgiving -- New England turkey dinner, stuffing, squash, pumpkin pie, etc. for which we Americans get a dispensation from the meatless requirements of the Philip's Fast. After all, we're in America -- and Thanksgiving is really a very special and wonderful commemoration and our only official "God-oriented" holiday. So, we adapt.

Blessings!

[ 12-22-2001: Message edited by: Dr John ]