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Joined: Nov 2001
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Hello,

Quote
But how does Rome view the SSPX - are they "without grace" etc.? If one may attend Mass at an SSPX church, then what does this imply overall?
The SSPX is a schismatic sect that has retained, so far, valid (but, of course, illicit) sacraments. Mere attendance to an SSPX Mass is not an offense punishable by law. Reception of the sacraments from an SSPX minister is regulated by the same canons that regulate reception from any other church with valid sacraments.

But we are not talking about either. We are talking about a priest who celebrated Mass for them and with them in express disobedience to his bishop.

What would an Orthodox bishop think of a priest who celebrated the Liturgy for a Greek Catholic community in a Greek Catholic parish?


Quote
I know a Tridentine priest who is a member of the Society of St Peter - he tells me they are on good terms with the SSPX and work to bring them into communion with Rome. At the same time, he and others of these traditional RC societies really DO want Rome to return to the Tridentine liturgy - no doubt about that.
What they fail to see is that the Church will not "go back". The Church will go forward and integrate these legitimate expressions of the Latin Tradition into the life of the Church. But we will move FORWARD.

If we went back, we would not be worthy of being disciples of Christ.

Quote
But the liberals who deny various doctrines of Christianity surely do MUCH worse than conservatives who are punished for wanting what the Tridentine Rite allows them to experience in worship.
Of course. Liberal heterodox are to be punished just as severely as Conservative heterodox. That is the way it has been for almost 2000 years. It should be the way it is now.

If this has faild to be on one side, it doesn't mean it has to fail on the other side. It is better to commit one mistake than two.

Quote
Historically, obedience to the hierarchy is NOT the ultimate guiding principle to a Christian - faithfulness to Christ and Church teaching is.
Yes, and the Church teaches that to celebrate the Mass using any rite other than the currently approved one, you need permission from your bishop.

If you disobey, you are not only going against your bishop's authority, but also against the teachings of the Church, and therefore, against Christ.

Quote
What the priest we are considering here did was wrong.

But I get a sense that you are affirming obedience to the hierarchy as the ultimate value.
Not at all. However obedience to the hierarchy is a value. To disregard it, it has to be for a greater value.

When the hierarchy execises its power rightfully, obedience to the hierarchy is indeed, and expression of our loving obedience to Christ. This, I'm not sure if I would call "the ultimate value", but if not, it is pretty darn close.

I do not know if what the priest did was wrong. I believe it is, but I am not to judge my brother. I know that it is against the law, and the punishment applied is just, according to the law.

Quote
In addition, why is Rome failing to see the positive spiritual results that her legitimate societies and seminaries of the Tridentine Rite are bringing to the Church? Why not study WHY this is so and see where to go from there?
I do not think Rome is. Perhaps this Cardinal is, but not Rome.

However, Rome must not fail to see the negative spiritual results either. Rome needs to balance all things out.

Quote
I attended liberal Catholic colleges for a number of years.

I could tell you stories . . .
I attended elementary, middle and high school under the control of the SSPX. Boy *I* can tell *you* stories. Stories about persecution, and violence, and lies, and threats, and fulfilled threats.

Quote
The people I came into contact with there are not worthy of the defense of solid Catholics like yourself or Fr. Stephanos . . .
Thank you for your kind and unmerrited words. The people I came into contact with there, on the other hand, are not only not worthy of defense from solid Catholics like yourself. They are worthy of forgiveness, but only because the Lord commanded it.

I forgive them because I know God forgives my own sins, which are far greater and more numerous, but I do so against every fiber of my fallen human nature.

Lord, have mercy on us all!

Shalom,
Memo.

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CHB.

Dear Adam, I was teaching in the time period before, during and after the SSPX schism. I wanted to see myself what was to transpire, being in a very unique situation as a third-party Greek Catholic looking at the whole thing unfold. I am considering writing about observations of that time from my perspective.

Several of the priests and many of the laity I taught with opted for unity with either the FSSP or other traditional communities in communion with Rome. A very close personal friend [who is now the Superior General of the FSSP] whom I taught with, honoring both my and my wife's desire to "breathe with both lungs" performed the Latin rite of solemn betrothal for us prior to his departure from the SSPX to the FSSP.

Adam, within the SSPX you will find many with the "hard line" who believe that their hierarchy alone (Fellay, Williamson, Galloretta, and de Mallarais] possesses the "true" Catholic Faith and are the only guarantors of that faith.

These types will likely never respond to FSSP outreach. Even if the FSSP had Solemn High Mass every day right next door to where they lived, these would go to a private or Low Mass in another town if celebrated by an SSPX priest.

I posit that the original positive spirit of Archbishop Lefebvre now lies with the FSSP. His desire was to regularize his priests back into dioceses, which the FSSP does. He had a standing policy while alive that none of the bishops he consecrated were to be appointed Superior General, to avoid the appearance that a "parallel hierarchy" was being created.

The bishops were to serve entirely to ordain priests in the interim until a solution could be worked out with Rome. That is not to exonerate the Archbishop, as he backtracked on his agreement which was good enough for the FSSP and the monastic communities such as Le Barroux. God will sort it all out eventually.

When Archbishop Lefebvre died, what happened? Bishop Fellay was elected Superior General. That, in my eyes, was not only a betrayal of the Archbishop, but the triumph of the overtly "schismatic" faction of SSPX clergy. And it did not go unnoticed, as many SSPX clergy left over the election of Bishop Fellay, as did many leave after Archbishop Lefebvre consecrated the bishops and was levied with an ipso facto excommunication.


I must agree with Memo. I also saw terrible things at my former school, and irreparable emotional, spiritual, and psychological harm perpetrated in the name of "tradition". In one of the more minor cases, I had students come to me in tears because they had been denounced by name from the pulpit. That is only one story and there are hundreds more.

As for me, I can only forgive, ask forgiveness, and pray for them and ask them to pray for me.

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Dear Memo,

Let's leave the entire matter to the Church to look after and pray for all those involved.

Alex

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