www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Those terrible 'Latins' - did this actually happen?

Dear Brian,

Well, I've managed to dis Lemko, Tony and now you.

Perhaps I should go on a vacation for a bit?

I'm sorry I sounded condescending. But comparing you to my university professors, who were liberal, leftist and conservative, was, I thought, no slight in the least!

Have I ever said you were pro-bolshevik? Wouldn't that be tantamount to saying you are no Orthodox Christian?

I tried, albeit unsuccessfully, to assail the view that the last Tsar was martyred for being "bad" - and I think there is more than one historical interpretation of this.

It is NOTHING personal but simply my way of going after a view I've heard many a time before.

It is a perfectly valid point of view. But I believe it has become too 'objectified' and our western culture doesn't even like it being questioned.

And that is truly undemocratic.

And the fact is, again no slight to you, that our universities tend to have their own view of the Tsar and related issues.

The fact that one has to toe the professorial line while in university is, or should be, well known - no?

I had to toe it and I'm sure you did too.

I'm just saying that university itself isn't as democratic as that institution would like us to believe.

I was trained in a very leftist environment, you see, and I'm still very egalitarian, socially-minded and liberal about a lot of things.

I don't see why I can't question the "tried and true" western views on the Romanovs et al. without going against "academic orthodoxy" in this respect.

I apologise for having given offense to you, Sir!

But it's not like this is the first time we are discussing this matter.

And, after all, the Romanovs are canonized saints of your Communion - ahead of my own.

I don't see what the big deal is and why an Orthodox Christian would take any of this as offensive - apart from what are my own quirks that Lemko and Tony also find annoying.

I'll withdraw!

Alex

Alex,

I don't know what all this drama is about (and I really don't care) but I have not said that you are annoying nor have I said that you have dissed me. Please do not attribute such things to me if I do not say them, I have asked others on this board to do the same.

Tony

Dear Tony,

I will try not to dis you in future on this matter . . .

We're talking about the Russian Royal Family.

If you don't care, you don't care . . .

Alex

Ewwww. Is there a URL or was this a pamphlet or book?

I've been watching this discussion of Russia's political history with some interest. Truth to tell: I studied economics, and in particular, Soviet economics, in college. My university used to have a center for Sino-Soviet studies. (Then I realized the Eastern bloc economies were doomed to failure before I could finish a PhD and decided to go to law school. Wall came down the start of my 2L year. Good choice.)

Interestingly, though (but not surprisingly, if you think about it), I didn't encounter very many "leftist" professors in my studies. I had a professor for a course on Chinese economic history who had spent a fair bit of time in a Chinese prison. He was one of those jailed intellectuals/dissidents you always hear about. You really wanted to listen to that fellow when he talked.

Oh, and time to stick Lenin in the ground, I say. He's overdue. =:-o


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:

Dear Annie,

I remember reading an article about a poll of Russian youth in St Petersburg about this issue.

A number of them not only suggested that Lenin be "stuck in the ground," but, in addition, they said that, according to Russian tradition, they should "stick" a stake into Lenin to make sure he doesn't come back . . .

Alex

Alex,
After reading about the things that went on in the name of the Church during the Crusades, I no longer have any doubts when a story such as this one about the 26 Holy Martyrs is told to me. I do agree with others here, however, that the Latins that did this were acting under their own misguided, sinful, direction, and not under orders from the Pope of the time.

As to any who have doubts about whether Latin Christians killed Western Christians...so many Latins have killed other Latins in then name of God and Church over the centuries that it would be harder to believe that they HADN"T killed the others of other Churches or religions.

Huh? I must've missed something...

Dear Lemko,

It was a bad day for me when I wrote that.

My boss had resigned and now I'm looking for a new job.

I just hate those kind of days!

Alex

Dear Ladyhawke,

Yes, absolutely!

And you raise a fascinating issue in the study of the veneration of martyrs.

The Dominican monk and preacher, Jerome Savonarola, was killed by Catholics and yet he was venerated, and is venerated with his Cause having now been reintroduced at Rome.

The Dominicans have always honoured him and the people of Florence as well.

But can he be honoured as a martyr, especially since other Catholics were responsible for his death - including Pope Alexander VI?

He was killed for his religious convictions and also for opposing Pope Alexander VI whom he suggested should be deposed.

I doubt very much if this question will be resolved - the notion that Catholics can martyr other Catholics is something that is unthinkable.

Pope Julius II, who wanted to canonize Savonarola, but was prevented from doing so due to politics, was told that the Church itself was involved in Savonarola's demise so how can she declare him a "martyr?"

He then replied, "The confession of sin (on the part of those who condemned Savonarola) is not what pollutes; It is the sin itself that pollutes."

And as for Catholic and Orthodox martyrs who died at each other's hands, perhaps one day we will be as Christian as the Anglicans who commemorate both Catholics and Protestants killed by each other in the Reformation Era on October 31st, the day of Luther's presentation of his theses . . .

Alex

I've been reading the many posts following my introductory question that started this topic. I am surprised that anyone here would think that the average Catholic or Orthodox person would know anything about these rather obscure events (as far as expecting people to be conversant with this theme). In my church, I know one man who might, but I doubt it. I am not a scholar like many you here, but have a passing knowledge of church history and have certainly never heard of the athonite martyrs, St. Peter the Aleut, the various 'uniate' martyrs mentioned, etc. The question was posed (paraphrased) 'why don't people read books and do their own research?', but I brought up the point about the athonites just because I found it by accident it and thought it was worthy of comment, not because I wanted to write a paper on the subject. Not having time for research projects, I just thought I'd ask the smart people here...I knew the erudite among you would know about this and so brought it up. About 'spin' and 'agenda': I do think it is fairly obvious from the tone of the original piece that there is 'spin' added to the story. The 'sinless' pope, the 'mighty' Roman church trying to dominate the orthodox, etc. The facts may be real (completely? or 'spin added'?), but the tone of the article speaks volumes about the agenda being furthered. I am so pro-Orthodox for a Catholic it isn't funny, but one thing holding me back from converting, and I've thought about it, is the very subtle to fairly obvious anti-Catholic attitude among many Orthodox people I've met. I still attend Liturgy frequently at an OCA parish, but have been a bit turned off by the 'we would be glad to welcome you 'home' ' attitude. Also, another thing that bothers me is that there are many converts from evangelical protestantism and their previous typical, latent, deep-seated anti-'Romanism'/anti-papacy is easily transferable one they become members of the Orthodox Church...I think that is one reason so many converts come from these evang. groups (my opinion, no statistics - remember Gilchrist, et al) as opposed to more tolerant denominations towards Catholics such as Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. What do you think about this? It is a very interesting question for me. Thanks for your replies.

Alex,
that reminds of some beautiful words that are inscribed at the common tomb of Mary I and ELizabeth I in Westminster Abbey "2 Sisters, awaiting the Common Resurrection" There is more to it, but that is the gist- that these 2 who were so opposed in life and of different religious Faith are united in common faith in the Resurrection of our Lord

Dear Brian,

Yes, I've seen that inscription and I think we can learn a thing or two from the Anglicans!

I personally venerate both Catholic and Orthodox martyrs killed by each other's confreres.

Alex

Dear Slavyanskiy,

I think that there are "fanatical converts" on both sides.

I know converts from Protestantism to traditional Catholicism/Tridentine Rite AND converts to Churches like ROCOR that are equal in terms of "misguided and mismanaged zeal."

I know converts to the OCA (some of my best friends are such!) who are very loving and ecumenical - I would like to be like them in my own personal life.

No one has a monopoly on fanaticism.

As for the story of the Zographou Martyrs, many traditional Catholic martyr stories are comparable.

Alex

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
[QB] Dear Slavyanskiy,

(edit)
I know converts to the OCA (some of my best friends are such!) who are very loving and ecumenical - I would like to be like them in my own personal life.

***I've met some as well at the local OCA parish, and the priests and archbishop are wonderful as well...

As for the story of the Zographou Martyrs, many traditional Catholic martyr stories are comparable.
***but are they as polemical in intent as the story which started this topic? I haven't read many stories about the reformation/counter-reformation period martyrs, but I can imagine that the viewpoint might be skewed, on both sides...

Alex, I've enjoyed reading your posts, by the way - very entertaining as well as thought provoking...