www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West ROCOR

Hey Alex,
You know I agree with Orthodoxyordeath and Father Serafim. there are some orthodox faithful that are being led by the deaf, dumb and blind. If you know what I mean.
Lauro

This came up earlier, MP Patrairch Alexei's code name was "Agent Drozdov" for anyone who wants to check the KGB archives.

I find it somewhat confusing that one Orthodox would accuse another jurisdiction of being modernist or ecumaniacs, whatever...Are they Orthodox or not? As for me, I'll take the "modernist" OCA of Schmemann and Meyendorff to the sometimes paranoid cultic rhetoric of the ROCOR, I know where I stand as Ukrainian Catholic when I visit the OCA. Reminds me too much of my stint with the Lefebvrites in a past life experience.

But, to the credit of the ROCOR, I do love some of the things they do in Jordainville liturgically and I am a fan of several of their liturgical books.

I think ROCOR's presence is to some degree a good thing. While I won't deny ROCOR tends to be a bit too strident at times, but the SCOBA jurisdictions do tend to get a bit "flabby" at times, i.e. maybe a little too liberal and lax.

When the time comes (and it will) that the ROCOR is reunited with the MP and is officially in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy, it will be a wonderful source of grace.

As for the views of ROCOR towards Catholics, my impression is that the ethnic, mostly Russian parishes would probably have a more open mind than the convert parishes, even though their services would be in English.

In Christ,

Michael,
ex-OCA, soon to be RC (waiting for the paperwork to go through).

Anyone know how the following story has evolved?
The article appeared in The Montreal Gazette last December (I realize that posting articles is generally frowned upon, but it's now otherwise unavailable).

Religious leader takes refuge in Quebec


The fight for control of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia leads to a small monastery: Competency questioned

Paul Cherry
The [Montreal] Gazette

A security guard struggles with 91-year-old Vitaly Oustinow at a Mansonville
monastery in the Eastern Townships. Although parishioners tried to help, Mr.
Oustinow was forced into a limousine. His case is currently before the
courts.

MONTREAL - The former head of a North American church has taken refuge in a
Quebec monastery as court battles, allegations of KGB espionage and
political in-fighting swirl around him.


Vitaly Oustinow, 91, was the head of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of
Russia (ROCAR), holding the position of Metropolitan -- similar in authority
to the Pope -- until he retired in July.


However, the former Canadian Archbishop changed his mind about retiring as
Metropolitan in October after a new leader was named by the Church's Synod
of Bishops, based in New York. The situation has generated a flurry of court
motions, both in New York and Montreal, centred on Mr. Oustinow's mental
competency.


The New York Supreme Court ruled on Nov. 20 Mr. Oustinow could be brought
back to New York for a competency hearing scheduled for Dec. 17. On Nov. 22,
hired security guards, accompanied by Michael Donskoff, Bishop of the
Diocese of Montreal and ROCOR's Archbishop of Canada, jostled with
parishioners at the Mansonville monastery in the Eastern Townships as they
forced Mr. Oustinow into a limousine.


"We were all appalled," said Peter Paganuzzi, a Montreal parishioner who saw
the incident. "I think even some of the bishops on the [Church's council]
were also appalled, to the point of outrage."


Securit� Qu�bec officers were called, but refused to carry out the New York court order, in part because the issue is also before the courts in Quebec.


A recent Quebec Court of Appeal judgment quashed the order to have Mr. Oustinow returned to New York and he remains at the monastery.


Elyse Rosen, Mr. Oustinow's lawyer in Montreal, said the issue of his
competency is still before the New York courts.


Some observers say the conflict is rooted in differences over the church's
previous isolationist stance and is now a battle between conservatives and
moderates.


The Church has more than 100,000 parishioners in North America, including
nearly 10,000 in Canada. It was established in 1920 as a temporary
ecclesiastical authority after the Bolshevik revolution to maintain
independence from the Communist state.


"The Church considers its mission is a temporary one until there is the
normalization of church life in Russia," said Nicolas Ohotin, the church's
New York communications director. "Despite the fall of Communism, the Church
does not feel church life has normalized. There are remnants of the Moscow
patriarchate's subjugation to the atheist state that exist to this day.


"There is a small faction within our Church that condemns our Church for
even entertaining the thought that one day church life in Russia will be
normalized. This very vocal faction has taken advantage of [Mr. Oustinow's]
mental condition."


The Church alleges a conservative faction is using Mr. Oustinow's mental
state to gain control of some of its properties and bank accounts and create
a parallel church structure.


Mr. Oustinow's change of mind in October is also believed to be because he
opposed the choice of Bishop Laurus Shkurla, 73, considered a moderate in
favour of improving relationships with other Orthodox Churches, in
particular Moscow's.


New Jersey resident Ludmila Rosnianski, a native of Russia and a U.S.
citizen, has drawn considerable attention in the conflict. She was Mr.
Oustinow's secretary for 12 years.


According to an affidavit filed by Bishop Donskoff on behalf of the church,
a former RCMP investigator testified Ms. Rosnianski was probably on the
payroll of the Soviet-era Kremlin and the KGB.


While the former Mountie presented no formal proof, Bishop Donskoff's
affidavit claims he testified that she wanted to "create entries" into
Canadian and U.S. churches for Russian spies.


The affidavit accuses Ms. Rosnianski of taking advantage of Mr. Oustinow's
mental state to transfer some of the Church's Canadian real estate holdings
and bank accounts to his name. In one case, $50,000 was allegedly
transferred from a church account and secretly placed in another.


Another example cited in a court affidavit by the Church involves the
transfer of ownership of church-owned real estate in Alberta to Mr. Oustinow
as a private citizen.


In her own affidavit, Ms. Rosnianski denies she is involved with the KGB and
declares she brought Mr. Oustinow to Canada to "avoid the oppressive
manipulations of the [Synod of] Bishops."


She is currently fighting a restraining order preventing her from being
within one kilometre of Mr. Oustinow.


On Oct. 22, the same day the council elected Bishop Shkurla as the new
Metropolitan, the council also fired Ms. Rosnianski and, according to her
affidavit, physically removed her from the synod's New York building. Her
purse was searched and inside church officials found Mr. Oustinow's
passport, health insurance card and US$20,000.


A short while later in New York, church officials found, inside Mr.
Oustinow's bedroom at the synod building, a collection of medicines,
prescribed by different doctors. According to Bishop Donskoff's affidavit,
the medicine was analyzed by a physician who found the collection
"constituted a cocktail of medications that was excessively dangerous to his
health" and would create a dependency on narcotics.


In an official statement, the Synod of Bishops accused Ms. Rosnianski of
drugging the Metropolitan to make him dependent on her.


"[Mr. Oustinow] still declares himself the first hierarchical of our Church
because he forgets that he retired," Mr. Ohotin said.


"But we understand that he has dementia and so he has not been
excommunicated or defrocked. But his position within the Church is up in the
air."

[ 06-30-2002: Message edited by: Roman ]

Dear Stuart,

No one was recommending you for Pope to begin with, Friend!

So don't worry!

Alex

Dear Anastasios,

It is ALWAYS so good to see you here, my newly married Friend!

You are so open minded - the realities of marriage haven't gripped you as yet I see!

Perhaps I came across sounding narrow-minded and not my usual self . . .

I have no problem attending OCA parishes, or even an Assyrian liturgy with Stuart, if he's still talking to me.

And +Ray got an education on Orthodox jurisdictions in a hurry.

I too visit Jordanville whenever I can and am always made to feel welcome.

I just don't believe in attending places, ROCOR, SSPX or a Novus Ordo parish with an anti-Eastern pastor, where we would run the risk of being belittled for who we are.

And, yes, Great Seminarian, we don't always know that.

But it is sometimes a fair bet to assume there are places where Eastern Catholics would not be welcomed, would be considered as not having grace at all etc.

What is the point of such "ecumenical sharing" then?

What cause is furthered? Whose spirituality is enhanced?

The point raised by Patriarch-of-the-East Stuart about Eastern CAtholics attending Orthodox Churches and receiving Communion in them is one of "economy."

Stuart himself once said that intercommunion is a good way to achieve the reunification of the Churches.

And I know that neither the Orthodox nor the Catholic Churches would agree with him.

You are attending St Vladimir's Seminary and I know you are appreciated and valued by your professors and colleagues, although you are (still) Eastern Catholic.

If someone is Orthodox or if a community is Orthodox and is open to having me participate, in some ways or others, in their liturgical life - hey I'm right there.

But if they don't want me, I'm not going to tell them I'm Orthodox so I could be accepted. And I would rather not upset them by trying to force myself on them.

The pain of separation is very real. But nothing is made better by trying to ignore it.

I agree with our beloved mentor, colleague and teacher, Stuart, about our openness to the Orthodox.

But nothing is served by pretending the separation isn't real or that there are Orthodox who just see us in a less than charitable light.

Communion is only really valid when it comes from both sides.

The person who counselled me on all this was Fr. Serge Keleher who related to me his manifold experiences with Orthodox jurisdictions. He gave he his pastoral take on the matter which I have always followed.

And Fr. Keleher beats out Stuart and Tim any day!

To say otherwise is to truly want to play Pope. I'm just supporting what I understand is true Catholic teaching on the matter, in obedience to the Pope and the Bishops in union with him.

Alex

[ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

[ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Bless me a sinner, Father Serafim,

Yes, I agree with you completely, Holy Orthodox Father!

For me, this is an example of TRUE ecumenism, when we respect the fact of the separation of the Churches, pray for their eventual reunification in the uncompromising Truth Who is Christ, according to the Will of God, and, until then, avoid pretending there is no difference between us.

Even if there were not, the fact of our continuing (and painful) separation as Churches would still affirm the schism.

May God bring us together as He would wish it, not as we would!

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

Dear Steve,

I'd call you "Novus Ortho!"

Thanks for making me feel good!

Nothing wrong with that, is there?

Alex

Thinking about this some more (uh, oh) and to stir up the pot some more (I hope you don't mind, Alex)

As a Ukrainian Catholic I can certainly appreciate to a certain degree the position the ROCOR has with relation to the MP as both the ROCOR and the Ukrainian Catholic and Orthodox Churches have suffered with complicity of the MP under the Soviet regime, all questions of "canonicity" aside. And the openess of other jurisdictions, especially the Antiochians, in placating and patronizing the MP certainly can add to the suspicion of other jurisdictions being too closely tied to the MP.

In fact in most conversations I have had with ROCOR folks this commonality of mutual distrust of the post-Revolution MP often fosters a bond of greater understanding between us. Often a community that comes from a situation of heavy persecution in a way is seemingly cultish or exclusive to those outside it, and has a staunch and firm opinion of those outside of itself because of that culture of persecution from which it has arisen. Such seemingly reactionary stances are seen as necessary in order to maintain and preserve the unique identity of the community.

Dear Diak,

You are quite right.

There are and continue to be some very good friends to Ukrainian Catholics among the ROCOR.

And the whole issue with the MP is what has generated that friendship.

My earlier point to +Ray was that we should avoid attending any Church where we would be attacked for our religious identity.

My former employer was ROCOR and we attended his Church quite frequently.

I politely stayed in the outer Church but Fr. Vladimir, wonderful man that he is, would come out to cense me and we would bow to each other.

I would make a great ROCORite, no?

Alex