www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Dare we hope that all be saved?

Brethren,

I recently checked out Kallistos Ware's Inner Kingdom. It's an anthology of his essays. The last article poses the question "Dare we hope that all be saved." It is similar to the Balthasarian discussion.

Ware says that the Orthodox allow for the hope of a nuanced universalism. He analyizes Origen (heretic), St Gregory of Nyssa, and St Isaac the Syrian. Origen held to the prexistence of souls and other Platonic notions that led him to posit that all things will come back to their source, i.e. God. Origen was condemned for these views. His disciple St Gregory of Nyssa was orthodox to the bone. He didn't believe in the preexistence of souls; however, he did believe in a final restoration, including Satan himself. Ware points out that Gregory was never condemned for these views, rather he is held as a saint and defender of Holy Orthodoxy (himself being instrumental in the formulation of the Trinity). St Isaac the Syrian held similar views and I think he even said that people can convert after death from hell to heaven (purification being entailed).

Ware seems to say that we can indeed hope that all men can be saved. If Sts. Gregory and Isaac got away with it, then why not any Orthodox believer? Moreover, Bishop Ware cites a portion from the Divine Liturgy or Office (can't remember which) in which the church prays for the converstion of those in hell. It only occurs once a year on some certain day.

Balthasar says similar things. He doesn't say that all men are saved. Rather he says we should hope for it. We should pray for the salvation of all. And trusting that God is faithful to hear our prayers through Christ, we must then hope for our prayers' goal. Thus, we retain a hope that God regenerates everyone on their deathbed.

I'm skeptical. What is everyone's take on this?

yours in Christ,
Marshall

Dear Marshall,

Could you please explain what exactly this "final restoration" is? I think I have the idea, but I'm not sure. Thanks!

Dear Marshall,

I am a graduate student in theology and a few days ago in one of my classes we were discussing the same thing. However it was in connection with the writings of Karl Rahner.

As many know from previous posts, I attend a very progressive seminary and struggle with what is being taught to me and how it squares with accepted official church teaching. This topic is no exception.

The view that all will be saved is quite popular and the standard line for most modern theologies, at least in the courses I've taken. In fact only I and another student took issue with the notion of universal salvation, based primarily on traditional church doctrine. Of course, we automatically were considered "fundamentalist" and "extremist." The professor even tried to coax us into admitting that our image of God as a judge was an affront to His mercy! The instructor implied that we must have some sort of pride that takes perverse pleasures that some will suffer in hell for all eternity. My classmate tried to defend his view by talking about how universal salvation cheapens Christ's sacrifice and the economy of grace. I took the point that in order to be free, humanity must be able to make the ultimate choice for or against God. In the end no one was convinced, and my friend and I looked pretty bad in the rest of the class's eyes.

Sometimes I just don't know what to think. It seems like there are two different belief systems going around, each claiming to be Christianity.

St. Athanasius the Great, defender of Orthodoxy, pray for us....

We sure need it!

PAX

Benedictine

[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: Benedictine ]

Benedictine,

Though I do believe, at least I hope in, that most of humanity will ultimately be in heaven (through ways of purgatory).

It is my experience that people that speak like your professor, have never been in the presence of [truely] evil persons. So for them they can't imagine evil really existing in others to the point that God could proclaim an ultimate judgement of damnation on them.

Surely it takes an awful lot for a person to totaly turn themselves from God. But somehow a few people seem to manage to do just that.

Thanks for the reply Maximus.

Yes the existence of evil seems to be a problem for many people in theology these days.

In my Trinity class we discussed the dilemma of theodicy - how to reconcile God and the existence of evil. When citing examples many of my classmates were visibly uncomfortable with labelling anyone as evil. Even when I used 9/11 as a model, they still thought it wrong to call the perpetrators of this action "evil" claiming that we can not know what motives they had or how circumstances had influenced them, and so forth. Also, talk of demonic or satanic forces is throughly discounted and considered quaint & outmoded.

However, this could just be some sort of humanistic/relavisitc media-induced response. I say this because all are agreed that clerical sex abusers are evil and should be punished to the full extent of the law! Not to defend the indefensible however...terrorists are given the benefit of the doubt but fallen priests are not???

Where's the logic? Go figure!

Benedictine

[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: Benedictine ]

No thank you for the reply Benedictine. Evil is a topic of some facinitaion for me.

I've just come back visiting my Priest and spiritual director/confessor. Saying my good bye's to him before I make my long trip out of state and into the beginings of a new life - that will hopefuly bare positive fruits. I'm going for recovery, somewhere I'm thankful I've been accepted and I'm sure the Mother of God is leading me, after a long run around with the VA, in which actually the Lord works in mysteriest ways and this place will be more beneficial for me then dealing with the VA any ways.

Talk to any drug addicit of a real hardcore drug and they will tell you that evil exists - more then that but that they have been certain to have felt a strong evil presence around them at various points within their addiction. It's a fact and an experience that can only be experienced and this would be one case where ignorance is bliss.

People in general seem to label what is evil by what is popular to label evil - convincing themselves that they must believe in this as being evil. Your classmates insisting that clerical sex abusers are all evil is a case in point. Another would be to consider some young white "skin-head" kid evil. Both popular views, and often views held self-righteous individuals.

I'm not convinced the clerical sex abuser or white kid that is racist are evil or the terrorist that drove the planes into the twin towers on 9/11 for that matter. Infact regarding 9/11 I would differ with you and acknowledge the courage and sacrifice had by those terrorist - evil acts all the same though. The sex abuser, the white hateful kid, the terrorist, may be evil that possiblity exists, but I would have to look into ones eyes for that. But what is certain is that evil acts are being commited and evil it's self is being flirted with.

***

What I consider evil - 9 times out of ten the serial killer. Though this thought is often polticaly incorrect to many of the self-righteous liberal elite. But those same persons have never had the pleasure to look into the eyes of a serial killer, I truely believe that the phrase "the eyes are the windows to the soul" is completely correct. I'm not speaking of individuals who have seen death, those for whatever reason have killed, and maintain that "thousand yard stare". I'm speaking specificaly to evil in ones eyes, one that is without remorse, but further then that one that derives pleasure from the suffering anguish and fear in others.

In the Corps in one company I was in, we had a Marine accused by law enforcement (at least heavily suspected) of being a serial rapest/killer, mutilating the bodies of the women after he killed them. If guilty of these things (I believe he did it) was he evil?

The same command, I knew a Marine there who was in his late twenties and married to a 13 or 14 year old girl. He had knocked her up so he married her. She cheated quite frequently on him, which at one point he left with his government issued pistol while on duty, and went to confront her at their home. He got busted in rank for that - leaving on duty [with] his pistol. He was a pretty good guy in all fairness, had some very real issue of course, but not a bad person in the horrible sense of the word. Was he evil?

On that same base we had a wife of a sailor come up missing. Turns out she was the dead body found out into town in an isolated (wooded area I believe) area. The body was decapitated. Guess who did it? Not the husband, but another sailor on the base. Why did he do it? Because he had beef with her husband, and this was his way of getting back at him. Was he evil?

Personaly I think very few people are evil just like I think very few people are saints. I think most of us tend one way or the other. But I truely believe in the existence of evil - and those few who have somehow managed to fully embrace it.

I think if I remember my systematic theology correctly, evil is defined as the absence of good. That is, "good" is defined as having love for God and love for one's neighbor; "evil", therefore, is absense of love for God and love for one's neighbor. And a person embraces evil when he/she freely chooses whatever is not in conformity with the ultimate commandment oflove.

Unfortunately, within the Western Medieval perspective, "evil" somehow became an "entity", that is: a reality that is somehow separate from the free-will choices of people. This mindset has persisted and so we end up with gargoyles, satanic images, 'black Masses', dungeons and all sorts of contemporary "Goth" images of the undead, skull T-shirts, skeletons, etc. Strangely enough none of this stuff ever appeared in the East. (Yes, we have skulls in icons, but they are the reality of death, and not "evil".) I guess it's a cultural thing for Easterns.

I am constantly amazed at the "evil" symbolism that occurs in modern rock music and teen culture. In the West, the predominant image is of 'evil' as an entity; in the East we understand it as an aspect of human behavior. I attended a presentation at a psychiatric meeting that was discussing elements of sado-masochism and its relevance to personality disorders. And ALL the evidence was from North American and northern European sources. All the whips, chains, dungeons etc. appeared to come from the northern Western European societies. Of course, I immediately interpreted this as a result of the psychological mindset that permits or does not permit the existence of evil as an independent entity - apart from the free-will choice of persons.

As for the incidents of murder, rape and decapitation that are mentioned above, to me it seems a question of interpretation of where the evil comes from. For us Byzantines, I think that we are willing to understand this as persons who have substituted their own will for what God requires. And that's evil/sin.

In the West, it can be seen as either an aberration from God's will (the Church viewpoint) or the existence of "evil" as a result of Satan intervening and imposing his satanic will on people (the cultural/societal viewpoint).

Clearly, our Eastern/Byzantine children are going to be influenced by the cultural/societal viewpoint and we are going to have to work REAL hard to make sure that they retain our theological mindset. (Because it's better and more in conformity with Gospel theology. Hey, I'm more than biased.)

I once saw an OCA-sorta Orthodox friend who, on Halloween, wore a Dracula cape, which --when opened -- had a fairly large crucifix under it. I was really shocked and I read him the riot act saying that although it might have been cutesy Western Halloween kitsch, was totally inappropriate for an Orthodox or Catholic Christian. In rather vehement language, I told him that he had better see his priest the next morning, and that if he ever expected me to interact with him again, he would never, ever succumb to such societal bull**** again. And I walked away. I thought to myself, the socio-cultural crap has seduced yet another of our people. He bought into the Western mode of thinking about evil, and abdicated his patrimony (he's Serbian) about what evil really means. [I was really ticked off about the fact that there was a crucifix involved in the costume. Few things in this world rouse me to anger; this did. In aces.]

Christ is Risen!!!

Personally I feel that the concept of Hell is far less emphasized in the present day then it was 40 or 50 years ago. I mean hardly an priest that Ive ever heard (Except a few older ones) ever brought up the subject in Church. Why back in the old days (In whatever church you were in) The subject of eternal damnation was one that was constantly thrown in your face as an actual reality that awaited unrpentent sinners.

I think that today, more then ever, people need to here about Hell and the reality of evil in our world. Let us remember that, as numerous saints have proclaimed, God, while being extremely merciful, is no pushover when it comes to entering Heaven. That is one of the reasons that we pray to the Blessed Mother and the saints for their intercession on our behalf. Mabye many people see the concept of God as a "just judge" instead of the meek, mild, all forgiving Lamb of God but hey, thats the way things were always held to be. Im not saying naively that if everyone started hearing more about Hellfire and brimstone then they would automatically repent and become god people but still, at least it would be in the back of their minds a little more mabye and perhaps they might think twice before committing a sinful act.

Also DR. John, I dont know about the west being the only place to have the likes of dungans and torcher racks and so forth. REmeber Ivan the terrible who took such great delight in throwing babies off the roofs of tall building and blinding, torchering, and massacering everyone and everything he found disfavor with?

Robert K.

Well Dr John, while I respect your position, I guess this will be the second thread in which we disagree.

I do believe in evil as an entity - that is as fallen angels, or even as Satan himself. Infact I'm certain I've felt evil within in my presence, no not imagining things, or metahporicaly speaking, or just being a nervous guy.

Of course all human beings *wills* play a part at all time concerning evil. But I am convienced that evil non-corporal beings are present and active within this world. One thing most people fail to understand about "evil" is that it does not really make consistent action on the strong. Now that strong is in every form of strength - moral strength, strong physical health, strong mental health, spiritual health. But evil entities I'm certain visit the physicaly sick, the unattractive, the moraly weak, those who's mental health suffer from emotional abuse.

Personaly I think some, a very few, fully embrace evil and *knowingly* muster effort to turn from God. These people are evil to me and typicaly reveal themselves to be serial killers. I'm certain they are evil and are wraped in the wings (metaphoricaly speaking of wings) of a fallen angel if not legions of them. And I hate to say it but Satan himself may even be present amongst these people at times.

As for a person that would kill another wife and decapitate her to get back at her husband - I would say the person is more then likely evil, but perhaps has not turned himself so far way from God that his road back to God will be an easier journey then the likes of a serial killer with at at least three victims behind them already.

In my opinion I don't think scaring people with the fear of damnation to hell is the way to go. HOWEVER I agree with the monastics when they say we should think about our death every day, the contemplation of where we want our soul to go. Personaly I think that one of Satans greatest achievments of this day is the coning of people that he really doesn't exist.

Dr John you are aware that Catholic tradition teaches Satan will take human form one day. I think Catholic tradition acknowledges evil as a "entity".

Dr. John wrote "In the West, the predominant image is of 'evil' as an entity; in the East we understand it as an aspect of human behavior."

An excellent point, often overlooked, as all too often in the rush to join "Eastern Christian thought with Western Christian thought" it is forgotten that the "world view" is often significantly different between the two (or between Orthodox Judaism and Western thought for that matter).

Given this truth it is sad that recently (since new hierarch arrived) the OCA Diocese of Sitka and Alaska has been ending the Lord's Prayer with "deliver us from the evil one." rather than (as all OCA service books, as well as the Slavonic-Englsh prayer books frequently used by Orthodox) with "deliver us from evil."

This deliberate change fits well with the Western, personified image of evil, but is incongruent with "Eastern" (shorn of Western influence) Orthodox tradition.

It may appear as a small thing to some but affects how people view "evil" behavior and whether or not they are able to accept responsibility for the behavior or ascribe it to "the evil one".

This is particularly relevant in Alaska where much of the crime amongst Orthodox is alcohol or controlled substance related and, as Maximus wrote "they will tell you that evil exists - more then that but that they have been certain to have felt a strong evil presence around them at various points within their addiction. It's a fact and an experience that can only be experienced and this would be one case where ignorance is bliss."

Indeed, those involved in the criminal (malum in se as opposed to malum prohibitum) behavior will afterwards almost echo Maximus words.

After twenty years of dealing with people who have behaved badly, I agree with Maximus, that "very few people are evil just like I think very few people are saints. I think most of us tend one way or the other."

At the same time "the existence of evil" is behavior made possible by our God given free will rather than a personified "evil one". FatherDeacon Moshe Zorea

Dear Father Deacon Moshe,

Perhaps it's not reflective of the Byzantine-Slavonic character (though Syrian, I myself am used to praying "deliver us from evil"), but it is of the Syriac. In the original Syriac of the Lord's Prayer, there are two interesting notions lost in translation.

Firstly, and most simply, the original Syriac asks for deliverance from the evil one, and not just from evil. Presumably, deliverance from evil is intended when asking for deliverance from the evil one, although I don't see this as a caving in of Syriac tradition to Western ideas, as the Syriac text is much older...some argue that it is verbatim what came out of Our Lord's mouth. So let's give Bishop Nikolai a break.

The second is in the petition commonly translated "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us". To me, this has always meant that we ask God to forgive us, in/with the same measure in which we have forgiven others. This, then, serves as motivation for us to forgive others even as the Lord has forgiven us.

But the original Syriac reads "forgive us our trespasses, as we have also forgiven those who have trespassed against us" or "forgive us our debts, as we have also forgiven our debtors". Here the implication, it seems to me, is that before we dare to come before the throne of God seeking forgiveness, we are to have forgiven others of the offences they have committed against us.

As if the Lord didn't set the standard high enough already...

God bless you in these holy days, and pray for me.

"...alla pise imass apo tou ponirou."

....but deliver us from evil."

Abdur

Dear All,

Now I'm really confused.

Dr. John speaks again of the "East vs. West" with the West getting it all wrong (so typical). Of course the notion that evil is a lack or absence is straight out of Augustine and Thomas Aquinas - the 'best of the West' as one of my monastic confreres refers to them. So what gives? Are you saying that Orthodoxy does not believe in Satan?

In my theology class, this problem of the origin is evil is presented as one of two choices: the agency of God or the agency of humankind. Remember no appeal to temptation from demons allowed! So which is it? Clearly the 1st option is out by definition God is good. Ah, but the rub is "we can't call people evil because they exist (being is a good) and made in the image of God." So there is no answer there. So where does this lack of goodness come from? Who is responsible? No wonder some of my classmates are attracted to a kinda Buddhist approach - evil is an illusion there is only suffering. Hence absolutely no judgement on people OR ACTIONS THEY COMMIT. This last is the most problematic to me. Don't misunderstand me, I am not really into ascribing total depravity or evilness to certain individuals. No one is beyond God's mercy, nor am I dualistic thinking that Satan is equal to God ...but it seems that evil must have some actual origin.

Please explain in light of Church tradition, not just "Devils, demons, and goblins are leftovers of some pre-Christian Nordic culture." What about their presence in Holy Scripture?

Benedictine

[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: Benedictine ]

Dear Benedictine,
PAX!

Never mind about Dr. John !

As Bl. Pope John XXIII said, "Thank God I am not a theologian!"

Seriously, though, the East does indeed believe in the existence of the demonic world, moreso than any other Church, in fact.

The phrase "deliver us from evil" in the original Greek is rendered "Deliver us from the evil one."

It was Origen and his "apocatastatis" view of the final salvation of everyone that started this idea, but it was condemned by the Church.

We must pray for the salvation of everyone, but God respects our individual will in everything.

St Peter Mohyla, the Orthodox Teacher who wrote a Catechism, stated that "Even if we see someone sin mortally before they die, we are to pray to God for them and ask God to forgive them their great sin."

But our nature tends toward sin and this is why we must pray always, until our dying breath, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner."

That's the best I can do on this Great and Holy Friday.

Alex

Dr.John,

Surely you are not denying the existence of an Evil One(Satan). The idea that a personal Evil is just a medieval invention is bogus. It is clear from Scripture that Satan is a real, personal being, not just a "force."

Columcille