www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Dare we hope that all be saved?

In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. One God. Amen.

I would like to add something on the topic of "Dare we hope that all be saved?"

The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church (EOTC) maintains the ancient Jewish period of official mourning and fasting (combined with African tradition) as well as a conducting Mass for the dead in which the casket lies in the Church at the first one. Especially on the first three days of the death a large tent (dinkwan) is placed near the house of the family of the deceased; this is called the Luxo Bate (literally “crying house). Mourners come and cry and comfort the family. The first requiem mass is held on this third day it is repeated on the seventh day, twelfth day, thirtieth day, fortieth day, and first anniversary of the death. The requiem Mass in conjunction with heavy prayer for the dead, alms to the poor and other good deeds are what the earthly faithful can do to incline God to have mercy on those sinners who passed and are detained in Sheol. Their can then be allowed into Genet (paradise) to allow for the Second Coming when they will rise and the righteous will go to Mengiste Semayat (Heaven) and the fallen to Gahanem (hell). It is the Prayer of the EOTC that ALL go to Heaven, so we pray for ALL of the departed. I mean it ALL; Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini (who incidentally tried to destroy the EOTC), Richard Nixon, etc.

One example from our tradition will suffice as an example. Qidest (feminine word for Saint) Kristos Semra started her saintly religious activity around 1420 A.M. (circa 1426 A.D. by the European Calendar) in Central Ethiopia. She stayed as a Nun in the Debre Libanos Monastery where she prayed day and night. According to her Hagiography she pleaded with God to forgive Satan. One reason is because of the consistency of praying for the forgiveness of everyone. The other reason is that she reasoned that Satan is the cause of all evil and reconciliation would bring an ever-lasting peace on Earth.

This also clears up where our Church stands as to the earlier discussion on the source of evil. We say that it is Satan. Dr. John you are right, sin all boils down to a choice we have, but the role of evil/Satan is to tempt continually. For instance, after we have decided not to commit fornication anymore, how is it that all of a sudden that girl (who paid us no mind when we were neck deep in a deliberate sinful life) is now at your door step inviting herself in?

The feast of St. Kristos Semra is Ginbot 2nd (Ethiopian Calendar) (May 12th) this is two days away, why don't we all use the example of St. Kristos Semra and pray for the redemption of all sinners—that is ourselves and those past.

May God Be With You All

Aklie Semaet

Dear Aklie,

I think your idea is wonderful, and I shall do so.

If you've got a moment, could you please explain how the Ethiopian Orthodox Church differentiates between Sheol, "Paradise", heaven, and hell? What's what? How is each defined?

Dear Dr. John,

Yes, the group of Martyrs you refer to are the Martyrs of Uganda.

Both Catholics and Anglicans were among those who were martyred and they were glorified as a group (22 Catholics, I believe), although Catholic listings ALWAYS mention there were Anglicans as well.

The famous Anglican convert to Catholicism, Ronald Knox, had a great veneration for King Charles I and continued to attend Anglican services in his honour even after he became a Catholic.

He even submitted Charles' name to Rome with a request that Rome look into his canonization.

His petition was widely supported throughout France for some reason and I have a tract written by a French Catholic priest promoting this Anglican's veneration and canonization by Rome.

There are also many saints in the Catholic calendar who belonged to churches that were separated from it, including outright heretics.

Sometimes East and West fight over a saint as in the case of Pope St Liberius who is honoured in the East, but is the first Pope on the list not given the honours of a saint by the West, apparently for his weakness in the controversy he was embroiled in.

Alex

Dear Aklie,

Selam!

A beautiful and comprehensive presentation of the practices of the Holy Ethiopian Church!!

Is there a good on-line calendar of Ethiopian Saints?

What is the service of "Cock-crow?" This is surely unique to the EOTC, is it not?

Alex

In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. One God. Amen.


Dear Brother Catholicos,

I will attempt to give an answer regarding the EOTC's understanding of where the departed go after death.

When one of the men who was being crucified along with Jesus asked the savior to remember him Christ revealed more than his mercy, he also revealed where he was going after death and where the righteous also go:

“And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.'” (Luke 23:43)

And of course it was his spirit which went to paradise and not his body (which was to sit in the tomb for three days):

“And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit.' Having said this he breathed His last.” (Luke 23:46).

-or-

“So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!' And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.” (John 19:30)

After he rose and was done with the apostles he then goes to another place with a different name and in a different form (now he is full body and spirit and not just the spirit that went to Paradise):

“So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the Right side of God.” (Mark 16:19)


Genet or Paradise is a resting place; a place of happiness where the Souls of the righteous go to rest awaiting to be resurrected for the Final Judgment. Genet is also referred to as the "Bosom of Abraham.' The resurrection of the righteous will take place at the Second Coming when their body (as a man of age 30 or age15 for a woman) joins to their soul and go to Heaven [Mengiste Semayet lit. trans. "Kingdom in the Sky'] with Body and Soul. The souls of sinners will wait in Sheol; a place of suffering until the Last Judgment when they shall be resurrected and cast into Gehanem or hell. Hell is the "everlasting fire' spoken of in Matthew 18:8. We have no comprehensive definition of Sheol besides that it is a place of suffering of the soul. Beyond that we do not know much about sheol and there is plenty of speculation and spinning by theologians on the issue.

The relationship between them all is that we have examples, starting in the Old Testament, where people were saved after death by the Prayers of the living, the liturgy of the living. The ancient Hebrews had a tradition of offering sacrifices for the forgiving of the dead. Through prayer, mass and alms for the departed it is hoped that they can all be saved. I hope this answers your question. If not let me know where you would like me to fill in.

May God Be with you, pray for me

Aklie Semaet

[ 05-12-2002: Message edited by: Aklie Semaet ]

Dear Aklie,

Thanks for that explanation; it makes a lot of sense. My only question is by way of clarification, to make sure I get this right. Souls in Sheol wait there in that place of suffering till the resurrection, when they will be cast body and soul into hell. But when we pray for the dead, we pray that people would be released from Sheol, right?

Dear Beloved in Christ --

I am finding this thread fascinating, so much so that I am printing it out so I can take it with me to study between calling on customers.

I first encountered the Eastern understanding of evil from Fr. John, our catechist, in the inquirer's classes which led to our Holy Saturday. Having a thoroughly Western mindset in regarding evil as having substance and entity, I found the concept initially shocking. For a while, I simply put it to the back of my mind.

But there is a much more personal aspect of this which brings me back to this thread and makes me desirous of knowing more. What of my own sins? What real strength do they have IF they have no substance? In the Protestant tradition I came out of, people are always being called "evil" and "sons of the devil", which has led me to a certain way of thinking of myself (not a very complimentary way, since sin seems to have such an attraction to me). But am I falling into a trap created by wrong thinking in this area?

What does it mean for me personally that evil is merely the lack of good? (Which ultimately is the lack of God, since God IS good?).

Boy, there is so much to think about here, especially coming from the background I have. And ultimately, I wonder if THIS is what hell is, not that God subjects any of His children willingly to torments, but that by emptying ourselves of good through our free will choice, we distance ourselves from Him so that in eternity, we cannot experience that unity in love which we were created for and ultimately, which everyone deep inside yearns for. An eternity spent outside the love of God....brrrrrrrrr....that ALONE, with nothing else -- no fire, no demons with pitchforks, etc. -- should be enough to make one's blood run cold!!

Thanks for getting my week off to a stimulating start.

Cordially in Christ, LORD of the Eucharist,


Brother Ed

In the name of the father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. One God. Amen.


Dear Brother Catholicos,

Yes, that is the case. We pray for those souls that are in sheol, the place of suffering, that they may be released to Paradise and be able to enter Heaven after the Judgement. So we pray for them being taken out (or released) from the place of suffering. It is clear from scripture that souls in this state are not able to make any new decisions, or rather, they can change their mind but that does not change their status and are entirely dependent on the prayers, the alms and the Mass of the living.

God Bless You

Aklie Semaet

Selam Alex,

Are you sure you heard of something called a “cock-crow service?” Where did you hear this and what is the Amharic name given for the ceremony? I have never heard of it. I DO know that the cock crowing after Peter denied the Lord three times is highly symbolized in the art of some of the most Ancient Churches like those in Lalibela (many things are highly symbolic in Ethiopian art, like the 7 stars corresponding to the 7 churches mentioned in Revelation). However, I have never heard of this service. It could be a local practice somewhere but it is not widely adhered to.

Ethiopian Church calendars used to be available at: http://www.ethio-stmichael.org/ however currently the site (along with many Ethiopian Orthodox Web Sites) is not working for some reason.

God Bless You

Aklie Semaet

Selam Aklie!

Fr. Robert Taft mentions this service in his book on the Horologion. He said it was a purely Ethiopian service that augmented the Coptic tradition.

I understand that Ethiopian Monks pray 12 times in the day, at the beginning of each hour.

What holiness!

Alex