www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Where's the Catholic Church?

It seems many people / churches want to call themselves Catholic; besides those of us Roman / Latin Catholics there are some Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglicans and others who want to call themselves Catholics. But who are the "real" Catholics? OK do a survey. If a person stood outside an Orthodox church and quizzed a 100 people walking by asking "Where is the Catholic Church?" I bet that the majority would not point behind you to the Orthodox church and say "There it is!". It's common knowledge where the Catholic Church is --> UBI PETRUS EST, IBI ECCLESIA EST. This is not meant to offend; it's just stating a simple fact. To be Catholic is to be in communion with the Bishop of Rome! That's where it's at. Rome is home!

As a Latin Catholic I would agree with you. The Anglican "branch theory" presupposes an erroneus concept of communion. Not being in communion with the Sovereign Pontiff and the Bishops in communion with him means that you are not in the Catholic Church. However, I would hope that in your defense of Papal Primacy you do not ignore the fact that Catholicism is made up of 22 sui juris churches, not just one. And each of these churches is just as Catholic as another.
I'm an Ultramontane, but I have to temper that with the fact that Catholicism is more than just communion with hierarchs. It is Holy Catholicism, just as the Orthodox believe in Holy Orthodoxy. It is a living, breathing faith, with a rich patrimony.

Sorry, guys, but I think that this is just linguistic/semantic gamesmanship.

If, standing before a Catholic or Orthodox church, you ask 100 passers-by: where is a Christian Church? They'll probably point to the adjacent building and not direct you to the Disciples of Christ building down the block. If you ask "where is the Catholic Church", they'll think Roman Catholic and give the directions. If you ask "Orthodox Church?", they probably won't know. If you ask: "Greek Church?", they'll remember the Parish Festival and give you appropriate directions.

Same thing if you ask who the Pope is? They'll say: John Paul in Rome. But ask a Near Eastern or Egyptian, and he'll say: Shenouda I.

It's just cultural anthropology, and pragmatic-semantics (linguistics).

Being parochial and local in knowledge and perspective is quite normal. It's how we survive. But it really proves very little.

Blessings!

In Greece, if you ask: "Where is the Catholic Church?", they will point to an Orthodox parish church! The answer to your question isn't as onesided or simplistic as your limited knowledge would indicate, and who and what is "catholic" is purely relative.

"... ees mian, agian, katholikin ke apostolikin ekklesian."

(I believe)... in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church," is the belief of every Eastern Orthodox Christian.

"Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as wherever JESUS CHRIST is, there is the Catholic Church."--St.Ignatios of Antioch (See of St.Peter.)

Do not the Orthodox (even according to Rome) have "valid" mysteries/sacraments?

Isn't Jesus Christ present in the Holy Eucharist of the Orthodox?

Therefore, Jesus Christ is present in our midst.

Therefore, among the Orthodox, you will find the Catholic Church in its fullness----the fullness of the presence of Christ Jesus!

We need no Bishop of Rome to claim our Catholic patrimony.

Bill

Catholic Christian in communion with New Rome/Constantinople.




[This message has been edited by bill tomoka (edited 08-14-2001).]

And most of my Melkite parishoners would call themselves "Roman Catholic" -- however they are referring to the "New Rome" of Constantinople! One must always consider the linguistic orientation of one's subjects before running a test!

Edward, deacon and sinner

Well, lets just see what St Vincent of Lerins (5h Century) had to say about where the 'Catholic' Church is -

From A Commonitory, by St. Vincent of Lerins (5th c.)

II: A General Rule for distinguishing the Truth of the Catholic Faith from the Falsehood of Heretical Pravity

Moreover, in the Catholic Church itself, ALL POSSIBLE CARE MUST BE TAKEN, THAT WE HOLD THAT FAITH WHICH HAS BEEN BELIEVED EVERYWHERE, ALWAYS, BY ALL. For that
is truly and in the strictest sense "Catholic," which, as the name itself and the reason of the thing declare, comprehends all universally. This rule we shall
observe if we follow universality, antiquity, consent. We shall follow universality if we confess that one faith to be true, which the whole Church
throughout the world confesses; antiquity, IF WE IN NO WISE DEPART FROM THOSE INTERPRETATIONS WHICH IT IS MANIFEST WERE NOTORIOUSLY HELD BY OUR HOLY ANCESTORS AND FATHERS; consent, in like manner, IF IN ANTIQUITY ITSELF WE ADHERE TO THE CONSENTIENT DEFINITIONS AND DETERMINATIONS OF ALL, or at the least of almost all priests and doctors.

XX: The Notes of a true Catholic

This being the case, he is the true and genuine Catholic who loves the truth of God, who loves the Church, who loves the Body of Christ, who esteems divine
religion and the Catholic Faith above every thing, above the authority, above the regard, above the genius, above the eloquence, above the philosophy, of every
man whatsoever; who sets light by all of these, and continuing steadfast and established in the faith, RESOLVES THAT HE WILL BELIEVE THAT, AND THAT ONLY, WHICH HE IS SURE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS HELD UNIVERSALLY AND FROM ANCIENT TIMES;

Guess we have to ask ourselves who fits that definition better. The Church of Rome or the Orthodox Catholic Church.
Does the current Roman Catholic Church believe and teach THAT FAITH WHICH HAS BEEN BELIEVED EVERYWHERE, ALWAYS, BY ALL; BELIEVE THAT, AND THAT ONLY, WHICH HE IS SURE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS HELD UNIVERSALLY AND FROM ANCIENT TIMES; BY ALL? Does the Orthodox Catholic Church? There in lies your answer.

Bob

I find myself agreeing with each post above in succession and wondering where to go. The quote that grabs me is the following:

"Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as wherever JESUS CHRIST is, there is the Catholic Church."--St.Ignatios of Antioch (See of St.Peter.)

From here it's a short jump to Scripture (which according to St. Augustine trumps any synod or council )and the words of JESUS CHRIST "wherever two or three are gathered in my name......"

Could the next question then be: where in the Catholic Church do we find the sacraments instituted by Christ and where do we find the patrimony of his apostles?

Just curious: Does Rome count itself among the 22 sui juris churches or only those "appended" to it?

Yes, in popular english nomenclature, we all know what a Catholic Church is (and Orthodox, and Anglican, etc.). If one is serious about ecumencial dialogue we can accept the standard use of terms without any statements being made.

In the strict theological sense, however, the One, Holy Catholic, Church consists of al the baptized faithful - Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant.

And as Paul VI and John Paul II, even with the mainline Protestants, we have more that unites us than divides us. Therefore, the bulk of the apostolic faith is found in all the Christian denominations.

K.

Dear Friends,

A most interesting topic!

The term "Catholic" is one that has historically always been associated with "Church." "Orthodox" has historically been used to define one's faith. Today, these terms are used interchangeably.

"Catholic" essentially refers to the Eucharistic perspective of the Church where the "Whole is present in the Part" as in the Eucharist Itself.

Originally, this had precious little to do with universal papal jurisdiction, but with the universal Communion of the Episcopate joined together in a common Faith, celebrating the Mysteries/Sacraments.

Almost all Protestant communities who use the Nicene Creed profess belief in the "Catholic Church." Yet, the last time I looked, they don't recognize the Pope.

One Presbyterian friend once told me his church was "Apostolic Catholic" as opposed to "Roman Catholic."

This term can mean what one wants it to mean and the early Protestants referred to themselves as "Reformed Catholics."

Lutherans of the High Church variety refer to themselves as "Evangelical Catholic." There are Anglo-Catholics, National Catholics, Old Catholics etc.

There is one Orthodox jurisdiction that refers to itself as "Greek Catholic" since formerly this term implied that one was "Orthodox" not in communion with Rome!

Today, I think the term "Catholic" implies a kind of general "High Church" ecclesial order with sacraments, veneration of the saints and a hierarchical clergy.

Of course, those of us in communion with Rome do refer to ourselves as "Catholics" as a short form.

My grandparents came from Ukraine in 1966. They were very committed to our Byzantine patrimony and to their Ukrainian Catholic Church.

During one of our many conversations, I told them I was a "Catholic."

They looked at me with some shock and said, "No, Alex, you are a Ukrainian Greek-Catholic - and don't you forget it!"

I haven't . . .

Alex

>>>Guess we have to ask ourselves who fits that definition better. The Church of Rome or the Orthodox Catholic Church.<<<

The objective historian notes that neither communion has followed the Vincentian canon, though each has violated it in its own unique way. Once both communions recognize that fact, both can get down to the serious business of recovering the authentic Catholic Tradition that belongs neither to the East nor to the West. Until that time, though, we will continue to argue about superfluities.

Wherever the Eucharist is, there is the Catholic Church. Without the Eucharist, one might as well be Baptist or Methodist.

For the most part, I think the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox together make up the catholic church. Of course, that belief probably makes me "in communion" with no one.

When I visit the local Orthodox parishes and I observe the grandmas, they cross themselves, love the Lord, love others, love our Lady, and make good cabbage rolls--just like my Polish RC grandmother. I think we ought to let the grandmothers work it all out.

>>>For the most part, I think the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox together make up the catholic church. Of course, that belief probably
makes me "in communion" with no one.<<<

Au contraire! You are,at the very least, in communion with me.

Dear Stuart,

And me too!

Are these the seeds of a new independent Church body?

If so, I nominate you for "Catholicos-Patriarch and Supreme Pastor."

Alex

"I think we ought to let the grandmothers work it all out."

I'm with you. Next time I pray to my Polish grandmother I'll ask how she feels about doing lunch with her Orthodox sisters to work out the details.

But, I'll be lobbying her to keep purgatory and I don't mind if she goes for changing Immaculate Conception to immaculate from conception [I really prefer Mary as the Great Exemplar than the Great Exception].

Sorry, Kurt, I just can't agree with the way you stated that, and I find it at varience with the Catholic Church's teaching.

The CATHOLIC Church is the one true Church. However, Roman Catholics, Eastern Catholics are fully part of the CATHOLIC Church. Orthodox are "mystically" part of the Catholic Church. But Protestants are NOT in "full communion with the Catholic Church."

The reason I am emphasizing these terms is that it seems you are equating Orthodox and Protestants as the same things-- Christians not in full communion with the Catholic CHurch. But I'd say there's a big difference--Orthodox are in full communion with the Catholic CHurch--just not the Roman particular Church. Protestants, however, are separated from the Catholic Church themselves. Yes, the common baptism baptises them into the ONe Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, but the fact that they are now heterodox (note I did not say heretic, unless they are ex-Catholic) precludes them from participating in the fullness of Christianity that Christ instituted.

Orthodox and Catholics believe what Christ and the Holy Spirit said about the Holy Eucharist, but Protestants are simply unwilling to accept the divine truth. Kurt, it has little to do with them just "happening to be born into a Protestant patrimony" because faith is NOT experienced through your intellect. It is a direct experience of God with the nous (eye of the soul; the most spiritual part of man). People who have a darkened nous are unable to experience the fullness of God. It is not becuase they are born into the wrong denomination through no fault of their own--for God calls all into the Apostolic Church--but rather that they have not yet experienced the enlightenment of their nous. Let's pray that happens.

anastasios