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Yes to all these questions and comments.


Sorry, but the Petrine Primacy (however one wishes to define this) is part of this fullness. On this we cannot agree with you.

Pax Christi,
John

[This message has been edited by IrishJohn (edited 08-16-2001).]

The Church of Rome is among these 22 in teaching, but the practice has been somewhat dismal. While I cannot agree with our Orthodox brothers and sisters regarding the nature of the Primacy, many their complaints over its use and abuse are valid which John Paul II seemed to recognize in Ut Unum Sint.

Pax Christi,
John

>>>Jesus told Peter the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. There has to be some Church where that holds true else Christ is a liar<<<

I submit that you do not understand the promise, and that means, ultimately, that you do not understand the Church, which is the communion of true believers everywhere, not an institution linked to a particular place. When Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail, he meant two things: first, that death would not triumph; and by his glorious Resurrection, the promise has been fulfilled (Christos voskrese iz mertvych, smertiju smert proprav, and all that).Second, he meant that God's divine plan of salvation cannot be thwarted by Satan or anyone else. God is omnipotent, and not matter what obstacles are placed in its path, His will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. That does not mean that any one particular Church, any one particular bishop, any one particular person or groups of people is infallible or preserved from error; it means that somehow, somewhere, the faith will survive, and eventurally triumph. Christ will come again, and nothing can prevent that. In the meanwhile, we here on earth will, through our own pig-headed stupidity, do our best to postpone the day.

Amen. Well said. Such thinking has been permeating more clearly through Roman Catholic circles -- finally -- since Vatican II.


Not really, for they are in fact sister churches. Squabbling sisters to be sure, but sister churches nonetheless. In general despite our differences (and without ignoring or watering them down) I would agree.

Pax Christi,
John


[This message has been edited by IrishJohn (edited 08-16-2001).]

>>>I would think there must be one visible Church that has never fallen into error.<<<

I would like to think the moon is made of green cheese, but wishing it was so does not make it so. The duty of every Christian is to look OBJECTIVELY at the history of his own confession, and to accept what history tells him. He is not to be deceived by sectarian polemics or apologetics; he is to deal with facts and truth, because Christianity is a faith based on an historical fact and an historical truth, without which we are nothing. And a faith which has to sustain itself with pious fairy tales is probably not one worth holding.

"Objectively" is a very subjective thing. Like beauty, objectivity is in the eye of the beholder. What if such a person's "objective" view of the "history of their own confession" leads them to a different opinion from yours? I fully agree with you about the abuses, times of immorality, etc. yet no matter how many times you shout to the contrary from the rafters, believe from the depths of my soul that you are wrong on aspects about the Primacy. How shall we find agreement?

Btw, this can be considered a rhetorical question if one likes but certainly not polemical or one from apologetics. To deny that such disagreements exist stemming from honest people on both sides is sheer fantasy.

Pax Christi,
John

Well, not being in communion with the Holy Father and his Bishops does indeed make you in schism with the Church, and therefore outside of the Church. This is in Canon Law. However, not being in communion with the Successor of Saint Peter does not preclude being outside of the Catholic Faith. The Faith has many models. One can theoretically be outside the bonds of communion and still be a follower of Catholicism, though he or she is not a part of the visible, hierarchical society known
as the Catholic Church. Conversely, the same holds for Orthodoxy as well. One might not be in a canonical Orthodox Church in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch, but that does not mean he or she is not an Orthodox Christian. However, Cardinal Ratzinger also pushed strongly for the construct of communio. Christ, nay the whole Holy Trinity is the head of the Church. However, representatives were put on here for a reason. And communion with God's chosen, is a help for one's salvation.

God bless.
Bill

I understand the RC/BC pov on the papal issue and also understand that it is the key stumbling block to union/reunion. Personally, papal supremacy, universal jurisdiction, infallibility, etc., are doctrines that I know are incompatible with Greek Orthodoxy and I know my people well enough that I also know we could never submit to these doctrines. That's the bad news.

However, pragmatically speaking, I believe those of us who are Orthodox will be able to support the popes as universal spokespersons who can act as the voice of Christian morality as they speak to the non-Christian majority of this earth.
That is the good news.


This could be a "petrine ministry" that I believe most Orthodox and Catholics can embrace with fervor and fraternal cooperation.

Glory to You, O Lord, glory to You.

Bill

[This message has been edited by bill tomoka (edited 08-16-2001).]

I find the last series of posts quite remarkable, and perhaps the reason I never allowed myself to get ordained.

We're so busy yipping and yapping about canonicity, and objective membership in the "Church" or the "church", that Christ's teaching is shunted to the side.

Christ said: Love God. And: love your neighbor as yourself.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

When we get caught up in the 'canonical' and 'theological' stuff, we tend to totally ignore the whole and primary reason we are followers of Christ and not followers of the American Bar Association, i.e, "Lawyerites".

Sure, there's 'administrative' stuff. But where's the Gospel in all of this? The Greek "ev-angelion" means: "good news". Namely: salvation has come through Christ Jesus -- for ALL, not just the Jews.

Are we doing "ev-angelion" or are we just being prissy parochialists?

Blessed Mary of Magdala, intercede for us 'hookers for hegemony'!

Blessings!

Dear Friends,

In my web pilgrimage, I have found some good examples of the Church in words and in deeds, but probably the best answer I have found to the question "Where is the Catholic Church?" is in Majdanek, Poland.


"I understand that you are trying to free me. But I am asking you not to do anything. Yesterday they killed 50 persons here. If I I were not here, who would help them to endure these sufferings? I thank God for His kindness to me. Except heaven this is the only place I would like to be. Here we are all equal: Poles, Jews, Ukrainians, Russians, Latvians and Estonians. I am the only priest here. I couldn't even imagine what would happen here without me. Here I see God, Who is the same for everybody, regardless of religious distinctions which exist among us. Maybe our Churches are different, but they are all ruled by the same all-powerful God. When I am celebrating the Holy Mass, everyone prays . . .. Don't worry and don't despair about my fate. Instead of this, rejoice with me. Pray for those who created this concentration camp and this system. They are the only ones who need prayers… May God have mercy on them…" --

From Fr. Emilian Kovch's letters written in the concentration camp to relatives.

Blessed Fr. Emilian got the point. We are called to love, to serve, to share with - all
of our neighbors, whether they agree with us, understand our theology, share our liturgy, or not.

Working together, for each other, is where the living Catholic Church is. We, as individuals, can not accomplish anything by saying "my way or the highway." All Parishes will continue to be local, all hierarchs will continue to be complained about, all theologians will continue to debate, all of us will try to learn something - but will anyone know us by how we love one another? Will Jesus find us worthy on the last day?


Holy Martyrs, Servants of God and the world He created, pray for us, that we may increase in love and service.


John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

AMEN! [And Thank You ]

Ponder for a while the icon of the Resurrection. You will notice that the gates of Hell are busted down. Christ has knocked them down and freed the captives. Jesus did not tell Peter that the gates of Rome would withstand the attack of Hell. He told them that Hell would not withstand the church. The gates of Hell are busted wide open by the Lord in his Resurrection.

Brothers Stefan-Ivan and Two-Lungs:

Thank you both for reminding us of why we are Christian and what it means to be one.

Though concentration camps and other persecutions may represent the extreme of the circumstances of a Christian's life, the same principles of love for all must be the hallmark of everyone who calls him or her self a Christian.

Thank you both for reminding us of this.

Blessings!

I'm just a simple Latin / Petrine / Roman Catholic. I love the Pope. I couldn't imagine having a religion without the Pope; he's my link to Christ. I believe that Peter is the Rock that Christ built His Church upon and that the Pope is the successor to St Peter and that he is the Vicar of Christ and the Voice of God upon the earth.

Billy notes above:

"Well, not being in communion with the Holy Father and his Bishops does indeed make you in schism with the Church, and therefore outside of the Church. This is in Canon Law. However, not being in communion with the Successor of Saint Peter does not preclude being outside of the Catholic Faith. The Faith has many models. One can theoretically be outside the bonds of communion and still be a follower of Catholicism, though he or she is not a part of the visible, hierarchical society known
as the Catholic Church. Conversely, the same holds for Orthodoxy as well. One might not be in a canonical Orthodox Church in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch, but that does not mean he or she is not an Orthodox Christian. However, Cardinal Ratzinger also pushed strongly for the construct of communio. Christ, nay the whole Holy Trinity is the head of the Church. However, representatives were put on here for a reason. And communion with God's chosen, is a help for one's salvation."

But what if it is not a help for one's salvation? I've worked with drug addicts, with HIV+ people, people with cancer and potentially fatal Hepatitis C. I am 'good' to these people, I don't shrink back from their tattoos and piercings, and they trust me cause I'm an honest and no-BS person. When they ask about why I'm around and why I actually care, I just say: I believe that God wants us to love and care for each other cause the 'radical Jesus' said love everybody and screw the consequences. It shakes them up, but they accept it.

Jesus, Yeah!
Love everybody, Yeah!
Accept 'em and do what you can? Yeah!
Catholic Church? Good people, give 'em a chance.
Pope? Yeah, a good guy who really cares!
Church? Yeah. Come on over and have something to eat and something to drink on us. Meet the folks. They're OK, and don't bite.

Canon Law? How do you say "Bite me!" in Latin?

Blessings!