www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Latinization as a way to keep EC's with Rome

Dear Friends,

I've always wanted to raise this topic and I'm prompted to do so now at the new that Fr. George Maloney (+memory eternal!) became Orthodox.

To what extent is "Easternization" of EC parishes looked on with suspicion by various hierarchs and monastics of ours - for the reason that it may ultimately lead some of us or a lot of us to . . . become Orthodox?

Hmmm?

Alex

Alex,

I eagerly await responses from heirarchs and monastics, though has a heirarch ever posted here?

dan l

His All-Divine and Most Plenteous Ineptitude the Patriarch of Rockall and Everywhere Else has authorized me to state that HADaMPI has no particular interest in this topic.

Incognitus

But will HADaMPI favour us with his views on chocolate?

Gaudior, grinning

Dear Alex:

I can only post my own story and state that I buried my Mother two months ago. Since she was an Italian-American she was buried in the RC Latin Rite, per her wishes (and her priest was tremendously pastoral and I shall ever be greatly appreciative). But the sacramental separation was quite painful, and I'm sure that others from mixed Orthodox/Catholic families know exactly what I'm saying.

My Father consented to my being baptized RC in the Latin Church and I attended Our Lady of Kazan in South Boston while at college there. Fr. Alexis Floridi from BC was a Jesuit contemporary of Father Maloney's at Fordham. May both their memories be eternal!

The problem that I perceived was that Byzantine spirituality and theology cannot be separated as can Latin (especially since Vatican I and afterward). Thus I led the pro Orthodox movement and was the first chrismated into Orthodoxy (although I believe that others followed). Most understanding of this were the Melkites, and one of their leading theologians told me that he understood what I did but that he was too elderly to do the same. Father also told me something that I will never forget (especially coming from a leading Greek Catholic theologian). He said that Catholic theology needs defending whereas Orthodoxy theology does not. He further stated that if he were Orthodox he would not become a Catholic. I prefer that his identity be kept unidentified out of respect for both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches that he loved.

Christ Is Among Us. Indeed He Is And Ever Shall Be!

Three Cents

Alex-

Perhaps a better question to ask is "what does the Byzantine Rite lose by resisting Easternization?".

I know of one Byzantine Catholic Parish that a friend of mine attends that has as full of a liturgical life as any Orthodox parish (well, maybe save for ROCOR). Weekly vespers, Orthros, and Liturgy; for the past two weeks it has also had five Paraklesis services, Vespers/Saturday Liturgy for the Transfiguration and Vespers/evening Liturgy for the Dormition. (I suppose the parish really is "Orthodox", since if you look hard enough you'll find an icon of the three Pillars of Orthodoxy).

In contrast, a seperate Byzantine parish another friend of mine attends has only Liturgy, and a Liturgy on Feast days. This friend feels that he misses out on much of the spirituality of the Byzantine Rite.

What has he missed out on? Having attended the first parish, I can say quite a bit. I really view Divine Liturgy as more or less a two-hour Mass when it's seperated from Orthros and Vespers, since those seem to contain much of the unique "meat" of the Byzantine Rite. My second friend has also missed key parts of the Dormition feast (e.g. "O You Apostles from far off..." or the Doxaticon they sang yesterday at Vespers).

Now, of course there's only so much a parish can do (and if you want the full service, you should go to a monastery). A parish must ask itself "why do we worship? How are we to do it?", and balance its worship with what it can actually do, just as a parishoner must balance prayer with his other duties.


Anyway, sorry for an almost off-topic post. But I really think that imitating present Roman Catholic "mass only" liturgical life really impoverishes the parish, and feel that your question's the inverse of the correct question.

Latinization, even if some people conceived it as a way to keep Eastern Catholics with Rome it worked the opposite way.

I do not think that Latinizatons is now supported by anyone, even the most Traditionalist Roman Catholics condemn it. In the East, Modernism took the form of Latinization, and the attempts by John Ireland and other American Bishops to translate the liturgy to English and impose Latin customs thus removing any trace of Eastern identity was also a form of Modernism (Latinization).

Dear Gaudior,

HADaMPI approves heartily of chocolate - in fact, the continued survival of the Patriarchate of Rockall and Everywhere Else is attributed to the regular shipments of the Imperial Torte from Vienna (charged, of course, to the account of Emperor Franz Joseph).

Incognitus the Inquisitive Inquisitor

Dear Marc,

You make an excellent point!

But I'm trying to understand my own church experience where Latinization IS supported by hierarchs and also parishioners as a way to put up a barrier against the possibility that people may migrate toward Orthodoxy.

(Incognitus has been entirely unhelpful here! ).

And I'm not just talking about the known Latinizations in the Greek-Catholic parishes in E. Europe that are very happy to have them and to be able to worship in them once again.

I know for a fact that high-ranking clergy in our church are careful that Orthodox traditions don't become too ingrained in the majority of parishes (the small number of parishes that are "more Orthodox than the Orthodox" are often, sadly, pilloried as being "not ours, but they are there anyway.").

Recently, there was a funeral in my father-in-law's parish attended by a Protestant clergyman.

The (Basilian) priest was very ecumenical toward him, even suggesting he put on some Byzantine vestments (!) - an honour which the Protestant clergyman graciously declined.

Yet, to mention "Orthodox" is to get their dander up!

As for "Mass only," there are also Latinized parishes who have a full roster of weekly services, Latinized Molebens, etc. throughout the week, EVEN all-night vigils for various causes, pro-life etc.

While your point is extremely well-taken, I still think my question stands.

Alex

Dear Three Cents,

You obviously went where you felt the Lord was leading you and you are to be commended for your courage and stout-heartedness!

Thanks for sharing!

Alex

Do you think HADaMPI might send spies into the kitchens in Vienna to ferret out the recipe for us?

IF suitably bribed, of course?

Gaudior, wondering why I never thought to charge shipments to the account of Emperor Franz Joseph...

Dear Gaudior - Well, we can but try. Perhaps singing "Gott Erhalte unsern Kaiser" would help (I even have the words in Ukrainian). Or perhaps a Hapsburg heir would support a request that the Hotel Imperial should donate some tortes to gathering of the Blessed Charles of Austria Prayer League. Seems only appropriate, after all.

As Deliverer of Captives
And Defender of the Poor
Healer of the Infirm
Faithful Exemplar of Christian Kings
Blessed and Beloved Emperor Charles
Intercede with Christ our God
For our souls' salvation!

(I'd give the words in German, but I wouldn't want to annoy one of the Moderators, now would I!)

Incognitus the Inquisitive Inquisitor

John Replies:

That is so sad. We are truly Orthodox in Union. The problem is that we have spent years trying to be Latin Rite Jr. Enough, I say, Let us embrace our traditions deeper and more profoundly and then let the Orthodox worry about us

Dear John,

Right now in Kyiv, they certainly are!

Alex

(chuckle...)

This may be the start of a new topic.

-ray