www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Latinization as a way to keep EC's with Rome

The policy of Latinization as a means of guarding against schism can have bizarre results. These days, one can find a (mercifully small) number of Eastern Catholic parishes who boast that they are the only remaining places where nostalgic Latins can attend Sacred Heart Devotions and other practices which were once seen as essential badges of Catholicism.

Incognitus the Inquisitive Inquisitor

Three Cents,

I would say that this is one of the key questions that ECs ask themselves. Personally, I would answer it in pretty much the same way that your friend did: if I were Orthodox, I wouldn't become Catholic; but having been brought up Catholic, I'm not planning to become Orthodox. (Actually, my answer isn't exactly the same as his, since his reasoning had to do with being elderly.)

On the other hand, if I hadn't been brought up Catholic or Orthodox and had to decide which one I preferred to join ... well now that would be a thinker wouldn't it.

Best,
Peter.

Dear Incognitus,

I was surprised at the number of Latinizations that seem to have survived in Ukraine and elsewhere among our EC parishes.

One priest I met recently told me about his village parish's 24 Eucharistic Adoration, where everyone has an assigned hour, as per their choice, so that there are people in Church 24 hours a day throughout the year - including small children.

As for the Sacred Heart devotion, that is truly very strong over there and even some Orthodox churches have it so as not to alienate the local RC and GC populace - it truly IS a badge of Catholicism today and right now!

And it could also be that one reason for this is that there is a general antipathy against Russian Orthodoxy and what smacks of Russophilism in church rites.

(I can just see it now, we're in a Ukrainian Catholic parish hall in Ukraine and the Administrator gets up and says, "Alex is anti-Russian!" - to much applause from the parishioners . . . and you would be busy with your icon of Bl. Karl of Austria - which would doubtless be very welcome there ! .)

On the other hand, so what is wrong with people engaged in popular devotions in Church before the Sacrament of the Altar?

People who can't get enough of prayer in church?

Yes, it isn't our EC cup of tea. But these devotions have been around our parishes for quite some time.

And we can't exactly keep saying that they were "imposed" on us.

In fact, I think there is substantial evidence to show that it was our own people who adopted those devotions for their immediate simplicity, warmth (the Wounded Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart, the Stations of the Cross) and the like.

And these devotions also had a place in the lives of the Baroque Orthodox Saints like St Dmitri of Rostov, St Tikhon of Zadonsk (with his Stations of the Cross in his cell) and others.

As hard as I look at St Seraphim's icon "Joy of all Joys" there are others too, - if that is Byzantine then I am Indonesian.

There are certain Western devotions that seem to have won a kind of "right of citizenship" in the EC parishes. Try to remove them at own risk!

And it's good that you have no inclination to Western devotions or saints . . .

Your akathist to Bl. Karl of Austria is on its way to you!

Alex

Dear Alex,
With much gratitude, I await the Akathist to Blessed Charles (I'm also awaiting the Icon, so it will be a while before I can display it anywhere).
Meanwhile, you ask "what is wrong with people engaged in popular devotions in Church before the Sacrament of the Altar?"
The undisputed reality that in some places such devotions are indeed popular is not sufficient to establish that such devotions are desirable. If I invited you to dinner and simply displayed, on the table, some lovely food and drink, but requested that we should simply gaze upon these goodies for the next 90 minutes or so, you would understandably be annoyed.
If, on the other hand, we were invited to Church for the Divine Liturgy and instead of Holy Communion the priest passed out icons printed on rice-paper and urged us to eat them, we would again feel hard done by!
And if we ourselves began eating the holy relics instead of venerating them, a great many people would feel that we had behaved offensively.

As Saint Paul exhorts us, let all things be done decently and in order.

Incognitus

Thank you for this topic. I can only speak about my own very recent experience. I always thought that my home would be the EC/BC but I had to come to the conclusion that it is not. A big part were exactly these latinizations that drove me away. Another part was the discrepancy in theology. I couldn't get western theology with eastern spirituality together. So I left the BC and I am on my way to be received into the orthodox church.

Dear Incognitus,

We all look forward to the icon of Blessed Charles (of Austria-Hungary)!

Forgive me for not seeing your point in the rather interesting descriptions you give!

I've yet to eat rice paper at a Eucharistic devotion.

As a matter of fact, during those, I actually do just sit and stare.

Who was it that said, "I am looking at Him, and He is looking at me!"

(I think I . . . GOTCHA!)

Alex

Dear Alex - now, now. Remember the famous saying of Skovoroda. The world sought me, but . . .


Incognitus the Inquisitive Inquisitor

Dear Incognitus,

Let me finish that with a modern twist . . .

"But . . . for how much longer?!"

Alex

Well, they don't seem to have caught Skovoroda just yet.

Incognitus

Torsten - the Passia of St. Peter Moghila, all those Akathists and Molebens, the well-loved and very humanistic icon of the Theotokos of the Seven Sorrows you can see all over Russia... don't think that by simply becoming Orthodox that will make all those western-influenced paraliturgical and personal devotions go away.

Diak: I am very well aware of that. However my experience with BC was way more than that. It was defined by having people that are not willing to have a fuller eastern tradition in their life because of the fear to be too orthodox. They for example preferred a rosary prayer before divine liturgy instead of the hours and thought that is what the the BC tradition is about. I am not able to accept that for myself.

Dear Torsten,

Your position is understood.

But our people, Ukrainians, Ruthenians and others, who fear becoming Orthodox are reacting to other, non-religious, considerations in this regard.

That too should be understood.

Alex

Dear Torsten:

I just feel dizzy from the "rapid" turn of events in your situation: from Lutheran to Roman Catholic to Byzantine Catholic to Orthodox (OCA)!

However, here's to your success and stability!

Amado

I'm not really qualified to comment on this thread... but since this has never stopped me in the past...

I have been asking myself a similar question as a Latin rite person myself: can I incorporate Eastern spirituality and theology into my individual prayer life and be benefitted by it? The counter to this being that I would make myself a spiritual mongrel neither Latin nor Byzantine.

I'm not 100% set on any of this but here's my thinking right now:

It seems to me that this may be the sort of thing that John Paul the Great was hoping for when he wrote Orientale Lumen urging Latin rite Catholics to learn about the Eastern Churches. He has urged me to learn so that I might be nourished by Eastern Churches and so live the full Tradition of the Church.

So with joy, do I make use of a Chotki and try to pray the Jesus Prayer (whether or not I succeed is another matter) because I have found it very helpful to my personal prayer life. I try to learn as much as possible so that I can be nourished by and if I mix some stuff together, then I am trying to live fully, the Tradition of the Church given us by Our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Ah, but the key idea here is that this is a personal spirituality and not something that I give as a corporate or parish level. In fact, I would not be able to do what I do if both Latin rite Churches and Byzantine Churches were exactly the same. It is in their very complementarity that I can experience both. If they were the same, I'd be experiencing neither.

So, it would seem that the Eastern Churches need to be authentically Eastern for their benefit as much as for the benefit of the Latin rite. Likewise, the Latin rite needs to actually be what it is for the benefit of the Eastern Churches (and her own members).

So, for this present conversation, my contribution, such as it is, would be that people draw a distinction between how Eastern a parish should be and necessarily forcing that spirituality to the exclusion of other on the members.

On a practical matter, that of Eucharistic adoration, I would suggest that this practice be ended in Eastern Churches. Those Eastern Christians who want to participate, should be able to do so in neighboring Latin Rite Churches. But this means that the Latin Rite Churches actually have to be Latin rite and offer all the depths of it's own tradition to everyone. Sadly, not all parishes are on the same page yet and there is much work to be done in the Western lung for this cause.

Unfortunately for me, I don't see all the points where there is some contention between being fully Eastern and in union with the Bishop of Rome. It seems that there are plenty of Eastern Catholics who also don't see a problem with it. But again, I'm not really qualified in this area.

Just my thoughts.

Dear Mike,

Well, since when am I qualified to say anything about anything here?

I think every Latinization in the EC churches has a reason behind it. It is often that reason that ensures its survival or demise.

In Ukraine, such Latinizations are a hankering after the past, the EC Church prior to 1946. They represent the old martyred Church and so to bring them back is a way to participate in the celebration of the Church's resurrection now.

They also represent a way of distancing oneself from the Russian Orthodox Church that put their church down - even though the Orthodox Church is smart and has allowed for some of these Latinizations in those regions.

The situation is very different here - although in my Eparchy, there are parishes were people are grouped according to area of immigration i.e.

Alex