www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Are we an impediment to reunion?

If our existence is now seen as an impediment to reunion between the Orthodox and Catholic what is our future? Is this the position of our heirarchs? Is this what many of our people think? If not what should our future look like? What should we be doing to see that it materializes?

CDL

The BCA is very distinctive from the Orthodox Churches. In my humble opinion, you are not an impediment; moreover, I don't believe that there's much motivation for reunion on the part of the Orthodox Church...safer to keep Rome at a healthy distance!

Dan,

I don't think the Eastern catholic Churches are as much of an impediment as might be thought. The Greek and Arab Orthodox (at least, those whom I have met) really don't seem to care that much about the Eastern Catholics. Yes, some of the Slavic Orthodox are very opposed to Eastern Catholicism, but even with them it seems like a lesser iossue. From what I can tell, the main impediments to restoring communion ammoing the patriarchs seems to be (1) claims to supremacy by the papacy, (2) the filioque and (3) hatred left over from the 4th Crusade. Those issues, and not the Eastern Catholics, seem to be the main points of contention in movements towrd communion among the Catholics and the Orthodox.

Now, as for the Eastern Catholics . . .

The Eastern Catholic Churches are not going to die out, and they won't be dissolved. They are going to live.

In the U.S., they will probably shrink some more till they reach a demographic level.

The Eastern Catholic Churches might shrink less --they could even increase in size-- by conversions. But, that would depend on if / when the Eastern Catholics stop staring at their navels and instead live and preach the Gospel to the many, many people who haven't heard it or believed. That means: preaching not to fellow Catholics nor to the Orthodox nor even to the Protestants but, instead, preaching to the lost and the forlorn and the seeking.

The future is bright; all we need to do is do it.

-- John

John,

I have little evidence expect my own observation but I believe you are correct. We aren't really an impediment. We are rather an excuse that all three groups use for doing very little. I think it will take a massive change of heart and massive effort in order to turn our situation around. I hope many will join that effort. We will see.

CDL

If we are not an impediment to reunion what keeps us cowering in the corner and shriveling up?

Dan L

Dan,

I'm not sure if I can accept the validity of this question. Things aren't perfect, but I haven't witnessed cowering: neither in person nor on this forum.

But, I think I know what you are getting at. I have seen almost empty churches in the midst of inhabited neighborhoods. Etc. In that sense, I would answer in this way: We are looking too much at ourselves and not enough to Christ.

-- John

John,

We are dying. We aren't accepting the vocations we are being offered. Our priests are mostly elderly. We confine ourselves to small areas of the country. We don't ordained married persons to the priesthood.

I'm not sure what one would call that but it seems that we are shriveling and cowering. I could be wrong about what to call it but the reality is the reality.

Dan L

The Eparchies are starting to ordain married men into the priesthood. Especially those in Canada.

We have married priests in Australia and the trains still leave on time. It 's like daylight saving is going to fade the curtains or the cows wont milk. Latin clergy some how get through the day without having a crisis. The people who were thought probably wont cope, like the laity in the parishes seem to have done ok. No reports of riots in the nave etc from anywhere. some parishes are actually looking at the accommodation needs and have worked out how to get everyone in their own bed at the presbytery.
I have posted a link to photos to our recent ordination in Sydney in 2. parish stuff etc.

I forgot to add the Latin bishops were the main shakers and movers here. They basically said to the Eastern Rite bishops to do their own thing and that as for ordaining married men. Well thats your practice so do it. They do it in Rome but it seems to be a problem in the USA. The question is whats wrong with the USA. It seems odd to have these patches on the planet where married men are not ordained. Hopefully no one will blink or see the need to pass comment on something that should be very normal practice.

As for being a barrier to reunion. I dont really think that is true. Consider the numbers of Orthodox compared to the Eastern Rite Catholics. They have more important issues to keep them apart.

CDL:

In a word--NO.

Part of any reconciliation of the Churches will have to be the reality of the Eastern Catholic Churches. I think it's totally unrealistic to think that any of the history of our relations will be simply erased. Somehow we must all find a new structure where all that we are on all sides is brought into the reconstituted communion. I also think that the idea that all Eastern Catholics should be forced into an Orthodox Church has a sense of violence about it and violence is not about Christ, it's about earthly politics and sin.

You are, now, and have been, a gift to all of us and sometimes a gift that has been unknown and/or unappreciated.

Similarly, calls for the Latin Church to somehow "return" to some area of pre-1054 history is also unrealistic. Each of the Churches has grown during the last 1000 years. We have all had to deal with many things without the gift of consultation with the rest. But that doesn't make any of the dealings or developments of no value since the Holy Spirit has been at work guiding the Church in each situation she has found herself.

If we wanted to somehow erase all this, why not go back to the time of the First Ecumencial Council when there were only four patriarchates and go from there? We'd have Rome for the west, Antioch for the East, and Alexandria for the south. That would pretty much cover it all. Then the entire Constantinopolitan tradition could come under Antioch and the Syriac Patriarch. Of course, this scenario is about as realistic as some of the calls to turn back the clock to some point prior to 1054 or to before the time when the Oriental Orthodox no longer were considered part of the family. We've all got a wake-up in this past century. We need each other and have to find a way to accept and live with each other because we can either live together or perish separately.

In Christ,

BOB

"New structures"? Like a new order to facilitate a new vibrancy for EC? Or are you suggesting something more profound? Or at least something in addition to that?

Dan L

Dan,

I humbly suggest you consider God's point of view on this. Romans, chapter 8, verses 14 - 17.


Bob,

I agree with you. Good post !

-- John

It may or may not be a popular sentiment, but I look forward to the day when the Eastern Catholic Churches are reintegrated into their historic Mother Churches within a re-unified Church (Catholic and Orthodox).

I am Byzantine Catholic, but I consider myself to be an Orthodox Christian in communion with Rome.