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Dec 29th, 2019
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Originally posted by Hesychios:
[. . .]
I am not suggesting that the eastern churches break communion with Rome, I am suggesting that they take charge of their own affairs. Let's not think of autocephaly as a bad thing, it would be a way the world of Christianity takes the BC seriously, listens to their message and works with them.
I feel it is the next logical step in the development of the Catholic Communion. Not long ago the eastern churches were merely considered "rites" within the Roman Catholic, with the latin rite to be preferred! Now the Eastern churches are "Sui Iuris" with equal dignity under the Pope. They are in fact autonomous, with their own name and some internal self government but not in charge of their own affairs. The next logical step is for these churches to become autocephalic and in communion with each other.
Imagine the change that could come! Right now a new Melkite Patriarch writes the Pope asking for communion with him (a nod to the earlier self determination of the church). Wouldn't it be nice if a new Pope would write the Patriarchs and ask for communion too? The reciprocity would be refreshing.
Real independence is the key to gaining the high regard the eastern Catholic churches deserve. They negotiated themselves into the Catholic Communion as synods, where has that self-determination gone? What a loss!
+T+
Michael Well said.
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Dear Bob,
I just read your post on the first page, and I must say it is excellent...as usual!
Zenovia
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Originally posted by Dr. Eric:
So you're saying that no church is fully correct thinking and fully universal...  I believe that we are a living scandal, and all fall short. I also believe that we together, all of us, are the church in spite of our shortcomings. Otherwise how could we even consider reconciliation, if not that the sum is greater than the parts?
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Michael,
You are beginning to convince me. I'm much more interested in reunion than I am in how we achieve it. Autocephaly may well be that route.
Dan L
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Dear Friends,
Just a few questions on this fascinating thread.
When we say the EC Churches are going downhill or dying - on what basis do we say that?
Is it by numbers, parishes that close etc.?
Is it when we compare ourselves to the RC's?
Are there other ways to measure the vibrancy or else living pulse of a church? If so, what about the RC Church in North America? Is it a vibrant Church?
The matter of preaching the Gospel - if we relied on preaching the Gospel as a way to strengthen our Church, is anything really going to change?
Who else is preaching the Gospel in North America? Are we not going to get lost in the shuffle?
Should we not be asking ourselves how do we preach the Gospel that is different from how other Christians do?
Alex
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Originally posted by Hesychios:
Real independence is the key to gaining the high regard the eastern Catholic churches deserve. They negotiated themselves into the Catholic Communion as synods, where has that self-determination gone? What a loss! There are a number of interesting and thoughtful points in your post. I was reading the latest issue of the journal 30 Days and was struck by a couple of things I read in it that I think are in a similar vein. In an interview [ 30giorni.it] with Senior Archbishop Cardinal Husar, he made the following comments: You have declared that the Ukrainians themselves must create the unity of the Church in the Ukraine, because it can�t come �either from Moscow or from Rome�. How would an eventual Ukrainian Church united and in communion with Peter�s successor behave towards the Church of Rome?
HUSAR: That would be another matter to deal with at the Synod: to clarify what it means for an Eastern Church to be in communion with the See of Peter. So the Orthodox would be able to see in advance what their fate will be, once unity has been achieved. You see, it�s also a matter of very practical things. When our Synod chooses candidates for the episcopate, I must wait a year before they are approved by Rome. I�m sure that neither Patriarch Bartholomew nor Patriarch Alexis would accept a thing of the kind. And it�s a practice that could very well be changed: it certainly doesn�t touch any essential truth of the faith. Aside from the rather ominous sounding statement about the Orthodox �seeing their fate in advance�, which might just be an issue of translation, the statement about the synod really jumped out at me. I can�t for the life of me figure out why Rome would need to approve candidates for bishop in another self governing church, or why it would take a year to do so. Another interesting statement was in the interview [ 30giorni.it] of Melkite Patriarch Gr�goire III Laham. In it he said the following: But the Eastern Churches themselves are sometimes troubled as regards the nominations of bishops.
GR�GOIRE III: For a hundred and fifty years we have elected our bishops without interferences from Rome, though nobody has ever denied Rome the right to intervene, and to us the right to apply to Rome. Simply, Rome doesn�t intervene de facto. For all that time we have elected good bishops. I don�t understand why we can�t do it now.
And when did all this change?
GR�GOIRE III: The practice was changed by Vatican II. It�s very strange. It�s strange that after Vatican II, instead of there being more freedom and autonomy for the Eastern Churches, the space has narrowed. I would be curious to know if anyone has specific information as to what this change is that the Patriarch is referring to. He seems to be saying they are actually moving backwards in terms of autonomy. Not good I would think. Originally posted by Hesychios:
I am suggesting that one big impediment to unity is Roman Catholic ecclesiology. That is something that can be fixed. It certainly seems that way to me, and the comments I read in those interviews seem to highlight this. In terms of all of this being an impediment to unity, I ran across an interesting document a while ago that seems apropos in this context. It was a statement, also by the Melkite Patriarch, in the Synodus Episcoporum Bulletin from 2001. In it he said: H.B. Gr�goire III LAHAM, B.S., Patriarch of Antioch for the Greek-Melchites, Syria
It is incorrect to include the Patriarchal Synod under the title of Episcopal Conferences. It is a completely distinct organism. The Patriarchal Synod is the supreme instance of the Eastern Church. It can legislate, elect bishops and Patriarchs, cut off those who differ.
In No. 75, a "particular honor" given to Patriarchs is mentioned. I would like to mention that this diminishes the traditional role of the Patriarch, as well as speaking about the honor and privileges of the Patriarchs in ecclesiastical documents.
It is not a question of honor, of privileges, of concessions. The patriarchal institution is a specific entity unique in Eastern ecclesiology.
With all respect due to the Petrine ministry, the Patriarchal ministry is equal to it, "servatis servandis", in Eastern ecclesiology.
Until this is taken into consideration by the Roman ecclesiology, no progress will be made in ecumenical dialogue.
Furthermore, the Patriarchal ministry is not a Roman creation, it is not the fruit of privileges, conceded or granted by Rome.
Such a concept can but ruin any possible understanding with Orthodoxy.
We claim this also for our Patriarchal Melkite Church and for all our Eastern Catholic Churches.
We have waited too long to apply the decrees of Vatican Council II and the Encyclicals and letters by the Popes, and notably by Pope John Paul II.
Because of this the good will of the Church of Rome loses credibility regarding ecumenical dialogue.
We can see the opposite occurring: the CCEO has ratified uses absolutely contrary to Eastern tradition and ecclesiology! Link here [ vatican.va] . He seems to be saying the issue is not only autonomy, it�s not just the Eastern patriarchs being subordinate to the Roman Pope, it would seem the Eastern Catholic Patriarchs themselves are subordinated to the Roman Curia. All of this strikes me as an impediment to unity. To what extent this is the fault of Rome or the fault of the Eastern Catholics themselves, I am not in a position to judge. Andrew
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The above post is another excellent one dealing with the problems presently facing the Eastern Catholic Churches, and the proper solution to those problems, that is, great autonomy.
But in addition to autocephaly for the sui juris Eastern Catholic Churches, part of the solution will also have to include a great degree of clarity in defining the proper roles of the Pope as Patriarch of the West, and the exercise of Papal primacy within the whole Church.
Certain powers of the Pope are quite obviously patriarchal in nature and concern the way in which he governs his own Latin patriarchate, because as Patriarch of the Latin Church he has a great many powers that he simply does not possess through his primacy.
In addition, the governing principle of action in regard to Papal primacy itself must be the good of the whole Church; and consequently, the Pope should only use his primacy in cases that qualify as a true "necessitas ecclesiae," that is, the primacy should be exercised only when the good of the whole Church requires it.
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Originally posted by Apotheoun:
In addition, the governing principle of action in regard to Papal primacy itself must be the good of the whole Church; and consequently, the Pope should only use his primacy in cases that qualify as a true "necessitas ecclesiae," that is, the primacy should be exercised only when the good of the whole Church requires it. When has the Pope not used his Primacy for the good of the Church?
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I think another impediment to reunion is the fact that some people can't get over things that happened 50, 100, 200, 500, 700, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000 years ago!!!
How long should Christians hold a grudge?
How many times should a Christian forgive another?
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Dear Dr. Eric you said:
"I think another impediment to reunion is the fact that some people can't get over things that happened 50, 100, 200, 500, 700, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000 years ago!!!
How long should Christians hold a grudge?
How many times should a Christian forgive another? "
I say:
You know it's funny, but only the Catholics can forgive what was done to them...so maybe, it's because they truly want union and the others don't?
The problem with the Orthodox is that they really don't care. Somehow or other, they have tunnel vision, and see only the immediate world around them...no further. As an example: The Orthodox church in the Middle East is going to die. It can't possibly stand up to the Muslim world today, no more than it could in the 15th century. But don't tell them that. In their mind they survived under occupation for 400 years in the Ottoman world, and 70 in the Communist world.
You know, the problem is that they have a 'martyrdom' mentality. The more they suffer, the stronger their faith becomes. Now what was it that was said when we were fighting in Kosovo? That Kosovo was important to the Serbs because that's where they fought the battle against the Ottomans' and 'lost'.
Which kind of makes me wonder, maybe the Jews have the same mentaltiy? The more they suffer, the stronger their faith...and so on! The problem with that though, is that what about the rest of the world. If one believes strongly in their faith, then shouldn't they be concerned about others that don't have that faith. And shouldn't they do their best to strengthen their 'Church' so that it can reach others in the world?
All in all, Christ's Church is one, and even though the Orthodox and Protestants consciencly don't recognize it, the Pope is the spiritual leader of the Christian world. As an example: When was the last time a Christian leader of any denomination other than the RCC spoke out about any moral or ethical issue... and the whole world listened?
Zenovia
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Originally posted by Dr. Eric: Originally posted by Apotheoun:
[b]
In addition, the governing principle of action in regard to Papal primacy itself must be the good of the whole Church; and consequently, the Pope should only use his primacy in cases that qualify as a true "necessitas ecclesiae," that is, the primacy should be exercised only when the good of the whole Church requires it. An example of the Pope doing something at the present time that is not necessary for the good of the whole Church, is the practice of having him (or the Roman Curia) appoint bishops in the sui juris Eastern Catholic Churches. This abusive practice, which offends against the legitimate autonomy of the Eastern Catholic Churches, will never be acceptable to the Eastern Orthodox, and so the Pope should cease and desist from it in order to show that he possesses a primacy in the Church, and not some type of dictatorial supremacy.
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Originally posted by Zenovia:
All in all, Christ's Church is one, and even though the Orthodox and Protestants consciencly don't recognize it, the Pope is the spiritual leader of the Christian world. As an example: When was the last time a Christian leader of any denomination other than the RCC spoke out about any moral or ethical issue... and the whole world listened?
Zenovia Dear Zenovia, In your profile it said that you are Greek Otthodox, yet this quote I have selected shows that you are very open minded toward the Catholic (not everyone is Roman) Church. I am very impressed by your candor and ecumenism. Not to make a generalization, but most of the Othodox I have met aren't as open as you.  I think you're great! 
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Originally posted by Apotheoun: Originally posted by Dr. Eric: [b] Originally posted by Apotheoun:
[b]
In addition, the governing principle of action in regard to Papal primacy itself must be the good of the whole Church; and consequently, the Pope should only use his primacy in cases that qualify as a true "necessitas ecclesiae," that is, the primacy should be exercised only when the good of the whole Church requires it. When has the Pope not used his Primacy for the good of the Church? [/b] Have you changed you opinion, I was on your website last night and it seemed to me that you had a different opinion of Papal Supremacy. Just wondering. Great website though! I learned many great things!
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Apotheoun, I don't think the Pope has nor does he think that he has Dictatorial Supremacy. I also spoke with the rector of one of theeastern Catholic Seminaries and he said that his Church is basically Autonimous anyway, their head is even a cardinal. Theoretically, they could be really Autonimous if he was elected Pope someday! Dr. Eric, who is NOT in anyway wishing for a new Pope yet.
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That should be Autonomous.  (And you call yourself a doctor) :rolleyes:
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