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Was it FAITH in Jesus or one's ORTHODOXY that characterized Christians from Jews in the early Church?

It was both! ( Read the Epistles of St.Paul and you will see what I mean. Pay close attention to his emphasis on sound doctrine or, as we might call it today, the nascent orthodox revelation of the Church.)

Bill...er...whatever.

Did Jesus say to those who he cured, "Your orthodoxy has saved you"?

Whose orthodoxy does Paul refer to?

[ 11-21-2001: Message edited by: Edwin ]

Dear Edwin,

Forgive me, Brother, but I think this is a silly argument.

What about the man who called Jesus "Good?"

Did not Christ try to elicit a confession from him when He replied, "No one is good but God?"

And John's references to those who deny that Jesus has come in the flesh?

And St Paul's admonitions against those who teach a faith in Jesus different than one that was delivered to the Apostles?

It is the historic One, Holy, Orthodox and Catholic, Apostolic Faith that teaches us to have faith in Jesus.

It is that same faith and Church that codified the Bible and the New Testament.

The question as you posed it smacks of Protestantism.

In our Lord, God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, the Head of the Church,

Alex

Hmmm. Faith is an ongoing process of affirming one's belief. That ongoing process is orthodoxy. It's like asking the question: are you a man or a human being?

The earliest Christians were practicing Jews. It was only when Gentiles got admitted to the communities and Christians were no longer welcome in the synagogue, that they became 'something else'. It was a question of "community" that gave rise to the identity, not the faith. We are supposed to share everything that the Jews have, with the notable exception of affirming that Jesus of Nazareth was the Anointed One promised to the Israelites. (Pius XII stated near the end of the 2nd World War: "We are spiritual Semites." In terms of theology and morality, etc., we have Old Testament roots, although we are freed from its ritual mandates.)

Blessings!

[ 11-21-2001: Message edited by: Dr John ]

Dr John – “Faith is an ongoing process of affirming one's belief. That ongoing process is orthodoxy. It's like asking the question: are you a man or a human being? I think the question is a faulty one.”

OK. Let me rephrase your statement. Since “orthodoxy” is an “ongoing process”, then “Faith is an orthodox affirmation of one's belief.” So anyone is “orthodox” if they merely have faith? Do not heretics have faith? I'm not trying to ask silly questions as Alex would think, nor do I think of it being a mere Protestant thing.

Many Eastern Christians, Catholic and Orthodox alike, make a point to promote a "catholic' view of diversity of traditions. Where does our faith lie: in the diversity of those traditions or in the "what' of what is taught? If orthodoxy is just merely a process of affirming one's belief, then we are all orthodox – assuming we affirm our belief.

"OK. Let me rephrase your statement. Since “orthodoxy” is an “ongoing process”, then “Faith is an orthodox affirmation of one's belief.” So anyone is “orthodox” if they merely have faith? Do not heretics have faith? I'm not trying to ask silly questions as Alex would think, nor do I think of it being a mere Protestant thing."

Not quite. I said that FAITH is an ongoing process of affirming one's belief. That belief comes from participation in a faith-community, i.e., the Church, AND --critically!-- from the graces given by the Holy Spirit as a result of one's prayer. One's orthodoxy comes from living one's (Holy Spirit inspired) faith.

I think that the problems arise when we think that there is but one 'orthodoxy', i.e., that the "lived faith" has but one expression. This can't be true because as each individual is unique, so too must his/her relationship with God be unique. When we believers come together in community, we share our individual faith-journeys with our fellow believers. That is: we share our graces. This makes a community 'orthodox'. It is a grace inspired, prayer-filled group of believers. Romans? Sure. Greek-Catholics? Sure. Greek Orthodox? Sure. Copts? No question. What we do as a community is what makes us 'orthodox'. The closer one community is to another in terms of belief and practice, then the closer they are to common orthodoxy.

In terms of the community, there should be a commonality of belief-experiences -- that's what divides us into Christian communities. Some folks have radically different perspectives; thus there's Baptists, Methodists, Episcopals, Catholics, Orthodoxes, etc.

As Catholics and Orthodox, we share a belief and experience in the sacraments, the calendar, fasting and feasting, veneration of the Saints, relics, etc. That's why I don't have any problems with Catholics and Orthodox doing stuff together: the beliefs and experiences are essentially the same except for the administrative doo-doo.

Protestants are quite different in their faith and experiences. I don't castigate them for this, it's just their historically conditioned current status. And although I don't quite understand a lot of their stuff, I love them as brothers and sisters 'cause Christ said that's what He wants. And I'm not going to argue with the Master.


Blessings!

Dear Edwin,

Please accept my apology for using the word "silly." I should not have since I now see where you are going with your question.

My reaction was also due to the fact that Evangelicals have often put similar questions to me regarding what they saw as "manmade traditions" obfuscating "faith in Jesus."

I take it your question is related to this, from the standpoint of Byzantine traditions.

In that case, I see that you are not Protestant and not silly . . .

My silly Protestant acquaintances, however, would consider Roman Catholics with their Mass, sacraments etc. as obfuscating faith in Jesus with all these too.

For me, the Byzantine way of approaching the Mystery of Christ is also what gives me such enthusiasm about my Saviour.

Growing up under a decidedly "Latin" influence, I felt depressed about such devotions as the Stations of the Cross where there was no mention of His Resurrection at the end of a very painful and sorrowful meditation on His Passion.

No wonder some proposed a "Death of God" theology, I thought then.

The Byzantine Church experience reinvigorated my faith, however.

This tradition(s) presented me with the triumphantly resurrected Christ in Heaven with His Father and His Holy Spirit, surrounded by the Glory of the deified Theotokos, Angels and Saints.

All the liturgical and theological traditions of the Byzantine and Eastern Christian experience are so many reaffirmations of this one basic faith expression.

That is why I love them all and love learning more about them, especially on this precious Forum with all these precious Christians on board.

Frankly, it sometimes sounds, Brother in Christ, that you want to bait us with questions like this.

Please remember that our Protestant friends could ask the same question that you posed here of you, as a Roman Catholic.

The idea that there is some kind of separation between faith in Christ and our Byzantine prism by which we focus on our Saviour and His teachings is really problematic.

There is a distinction, but it is almost like that between "Person" and "Nature" in the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

Dr. John discussed it in his usual dispassionate, to the point and scholarly way, despite the fact of his Greek background (kidding, kidding).

I, on the other hand, sometimes totally lose it owing to my East Slavic background.

Something in our genes that makes the blood rush into the brain too quickly, thereby paralyzing things momentarily or even longer.

Happy Thanksgiving and Praise the Lord!

Alex

I did not grow up in a "decidedly 'Latin'" influence, but a decidedly Pentecostal one. I came INTO the Catholic Church, Latin Rite out of Paganism and witchcraft which I took up after I lost my faith in Christ as Pentecostal.

I must say that I LOVE the Latin practices, and which ones I DON'T like, I just don't DO, they certainly do not motivate me to switch Rites or Churches. I LOVE the Stations of the Cross WHEN I want to meditate on the Sacrifice that He made for love of us. When I want to meditate on the Ressuercection, then I do that as well. Especially when I pray the Glorious Mysteries of the Rosary. The Latin Rite is a great Rite, just as are the Eastern ones. God bless.

Your brother in Christ,
Rick Okarski, Jr.

[ 12-15-2001: Message edited by: SeaZephyr ]

Nice, Rick, very true.

Thank you very much for your kind response. lol, that means a GREAT deal to me comming from an Eastern Christian. God bless you!

Your brother in Christ,
Rick Okarski, Jr.