www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West "Eastern Presuppositions" and Western Liturgical Renewal

Thanks, inawe. And your disagreement is duly noted.

As readers here know, I have no problem with and in fact like the legitimate, pre-Vatican II Roman liturgical movement, including its emphasis on social justice and the Mystical Body of Christ. (And Orthodox at the time were sympathetic to it too.) But like Fr Louis Bouyer, Abbot Boniface Luykx and others, I hold that it was perverted and destroyed after Vatican II. The authentically Catholic linking of the liturgy to social justice was replaced in practice by shallow imitation of secular social-gospelling or secondhand Marxism like the now-gone �liberation theology� fad. Dorothy Day and Catherine de Hueck Doherty were not Modernists or liturgical vandals. And time was when a parish zealous for social justice would be one with a beautiful High Mass, with congregational singing of Gregorian chant in Latin! It�s true that many among the Roman authorities back then didn�t like the liturgical movement, but for today�s modernizers to claim succession from it is an imposture. (Day explains how the Irish-American clergy, coming from a persecuted country where they couldn�t have elaborate services, had no time for good liturgics. They had an attitude like this: �We don�t need that froufrou � that high-flying stuff is so British! Our people do devotions.� I could hear the brogue as I wrote that.)

Dr John wrote:

IT'S THE PRIEST'S ABILITY TO CONDUCT THE WORSHIP OF THE COMMUNITY!

Thomas Day excellently explains the objective character of true Catholic/Orthodox liturgy: the personal holiness or appealing personality (or lack thereof) of the priest doesn�t matter.

That bit with the tinkling piano during the Gospel both disturbed me and made me laugh. (Sounds like some second-rate lounge act.) Such sentimentality in church would make your average cynical Gen-X or Gen-Y guys and girls laugh their a**es off. If that was all I knew of churchgoing I�d chuck it and go New Age or goth.

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

Dear Serge,

"Goth?"

You mean you might consider going in for some body piercing?

Or is this more to do with the old Gothic liturgy?

I do think you might want to be a bit more respectful in tone when describing the liturgical practices of other Christians, namely Novus Ordo Catholics.

I'll tell you why I say this.

Throughout my high school career at a Novus Ordo Catholic college, my Byzantine tradition was quite regularly ridiculed as being very "museum-ish", out of touch with contemporary times, irrelevant etc.

It was only after I became an amateur wrestling champion that the ridicule stopped abruptly . . .

I didn't like it when my Byzantine heritage was ridiculed.

I often told myself that we Byzantine Christians were above that, that we wouldn't do that if the shoe was on the other foot.

Please don't prove me wrong!

Alex

I think Rusnak engages in the same literalism he accuses the Irish of. A priest's personal holiness or appealing personality may not matter as to the validity of the celebration (a minimalism). But yes, it does matter. As does the personal holiness of the congregation.

An unholy and unpleasant priest leading the worship of an unholy congregation with unappealing personality (frigid, lifeless, joyless, self-centered, rigid, selfish, etc) is not good worship no matter how much you pay the hired Gregorian Chant choir, how much ceromony you add, how many statues you have in the church, etc.

K.

Dear Kurt,

I have yet to meet an Irish priest I didn't like!

Alex

>>>I have yet to meet an Irish priest I didn't like!<<<

Especially the Ukrainian Irish ones.

I still think that the key phenomenon is the priest leading the congregation in prayer and into the 'duties' of being a Christian.

One can do 'form', like the pledge of allegiance in a classroom. Or one can do "emotional" preaching as in an evangelical congregation.

But the essence is the Gospel. The liturgy MUST lead the people in prayer -- not just 'pious presence', AND inspire them to live the Gospel in their daily lives.

Whatever it takes, by all means necessary....to reach the goal.

Blessings!