www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Why don't we just - do it!

Hey...

I just had a thought! (imagine that!)

Instead of us just posting here at the Byzantine board - in our frustration - over wanting union between Catholic and Orthodox (which helps us but no one else) and our complaints about how higher ups are dragging feet and tip toeing through the tulips...

Why don't we just - do it!

Start an org - "Union of Orthodox and Catholic" based here on the net.

Yes - a forum board - but more than that - a clearing house of info - some clarity on Orthodox and Catholic teaching (both are forever getting each other's wrong)... etc...

Whatever items are too thorny - we ignore and stay away from - we just highlight where union DOES exist.

I would say that we have some of the best people for the job of running such a board - right here on this forum!

Forget - waiting for union - we can just - do it!

Of course - this does not create full ecclesiastical union and all sacramental restrictions remain in the hands of bishops ... but in a sense - - who cares??!! Take what union DOES exist - and highlight it - promote it - run with it.

We CAN start that union - right here - right now - and we do not need anyone's permission to do it.

I know the Catholic Church will not have any problems with it - but if any side does - what can they do? threaten excommunication?? fine - if they do - we can threaten to "join the other side" - so believe me I do not think there is anything that any higher ups can do.

All we need is a donated hosting service. I can help with the design of the site (html).

We just need to know "who is in" and then take a couple of weeks to design the site (in content) and about a month of creating the site...

no.. my friends .. I DO mean - a REAL union between Catholic and Orthodox laity. A place and banner under which WE as Catholic, Byzantine, Orthodox - pledge our unity! Stand united! learn about each other and help anyone to learn about how to go about personal unity across the board.

If things are stuck at the top - well then - G*d darn it - they do NOT need to be stuck at the bottom!

The forums must be managed - by people like us - who are already proven to have this union on their mind and heart.

The material posted MUST be approved by us (the different members that manage this) and we must concentrate on those items in which we are plainly already in union on.

Brotherhood of Catholic and Orthodox?

Reunion of Orthodox and Catholic?

what shall we cal it?

what ever it is - we CAN hammer it out and just - do it.

Think about it .. A �clearing house� for union. A major site on the web for �How to be in union between Orthodox and Catholic - with out waiting!�

-----committee-----
I certainly would want Alex on..
Photius
Alice
J Thur
And I could name others for sure�

No priests (just yet) so not priest get into trouble for being a part of such a thing. Priest membership will come later as soon as we figure out the best way to do that so they are insolated.

All MAJOR content (the main thrust of the site) would have to be approved by all committee members (the committee composed of RC /Ortho and Byzantine etc�) and nothing can go up as major content is even one committee member fails to approve some item.

Under the Major content - other sub areas � for example - for Catholic consumption �How to participate in and Orthodox Liturgy� all about the Liturgy - where it comes from - when do you stand? What is a Cantor? What is he saying? Can I receive sacements? Etc..

For the Orthodox = which OC churches allow an OC to attend a Mass? Can I receive sacraments? How are Catholics different through out the US?

And areas of info - where we only post such literature as written by Orthodox or Catholic - which supports or paves the way to union.

Anybody have time and courage?

What are thoughts here.

Ya know - once it is launched - we can just notify all Patriarchs that we exist. Some will applaud and some will frown - are you ready for that? I am. I report to the big boss <smile> and we do not intend to do anything out of line - we can not force union where union does not exist - but - we can push it - and push them - by our very existence.

Can�t we just cease wishing - and do it to the extent that we can?? And push the envelope too?

-ray

Ray count me in as a supporter. Your idea is pretty ambitious but it's time someone did it.

Jason

I think it has to be ambitious - the more ambitious - the better. Make waves! (but good waves)

But - to be realistic - our Orthodox freinds may have more repercussions that us Catholics - we need to hear from our Orthodox freinds in here.

Some Orthodox churches have a particular view against ecumenical things - hal measure... and they must be ready to take the heat for thier stance.

We Catholics can tell anyone to 'take a hike' - but not so easy for our Orthodox freinds. I must keep that in mind.

No pain - no gain (and all that)... if we are ready to break new ground - there will always be some one out there who does not like it. But heck - that IS what breaking new ground is all about? No?

Let us see what kind of comments get generated (if any) and either there is no real fire in this group - or - after a bit - I will see who really wants to make progress.

I have the feeling that we would not be on our own for long. Certainly we would gain support from many Catholic bishops... and some Orthodox bishops depending on which church they belong to.

I think the most impressive thing about this idea is - that the people right here at the Byzcath board - are JUST the kinnd and quality of people to do it. I can not really think of anyone - better.

Jason - thanks for your comment of support. That is - one

-ray

interesting

My typos were interesting.

Guess that I am tired. Off to bed with me.

-ray

When I said "we catholics can tell anyone to take a hike" that is not entirely true.

But I do know something of the Catholic process involved.

My local bishops could ask me to cease - but I can say "OK" or I can say "Nope... not without an offcial hearing." ... which right goes all the way up to a personal appeal to the Pope. That is a right granted to any Catholic.

But what are we afraid of? the Catholic church wants union more than anyone else. At worst - they will politly ignore us. At best - they will openly support us.

Again - I am not sure I want to do it. I certainly have the guts - but do I have the resources?? and local support?? and time?

unknown.

-ray

Dear Ray,

I admire your dedication so much! What a great idea. Count me in. Many here on this site will have hearts for this ambition. I don't think you will encounter any opposition from the Catholic bishops. As far as I know, some ECC's are already open to communing both RC's and EO's. I am certainly no expert on any of these matters, but I am certain my heart agrees with your purpose. Peace to you my friend, Tammy

Dear Rayk,

O.K., here goes:

"On behalf of the Pope of Rome and the Patriarchates of the One Holy Apostolic Orthodox and Catholic Church, we do here announce a full communion between these two Ancient Churches, renewing the union as it existed prior to the lamentable Schism of 1054 AD.

Further to this, we proclaim that:

1) the Nicene Creed shall be herewith used by all Christians without the Filioque;

2) That an Epiclesis shall become part of each Liturgy and that a panel Committee shall be established to study further the theology of the Mysteries/Sacraments with the view to understanding its role;

3) That Mariology/Theotokology of both of our traditions shall affirm that the Most Holy Mother of God was sanctified by the Holy Spirit from her Conception in the womb of her mother, St Ann and that she was taken up into heaven, body and soul, at the end of her days on earth. The Western doctrines pertaining to this shall remain local forms of expression of the Latin Catholic Church, having no bearing on the Churches of the East, who have always affirmed the singularly high position of the Mother of God in salvation history.

4) That our eschatology shall be referred for further study, as will our converging views on Original Sin as both of our traditions have always taught that earnest prayer for the reposed is to be made so that they may be loosed from their sins.

5) That the Seven Ecumenical Councils of the undivided Orthodox and Catholic Church of the first millennium is the universal norm for all Churches. A committee shall further examine the relation of the Oriental and Assyrian Churches on this score. All later Latin and Eastern Councils are to be considered "Local" but a future Ecumenical Council certainly has the freedom to enact specific canons of any of these for universal acceptance.

6) That the Pope of Rome shall enjoy primacy of honour among all the Churches, especially at Ecumenical Councils. That the Pope of Rome can be asked by any Eastern Church to act as arbiter in disputes or difficulties only after he has been invited to do so by the respective hierarchies of the Eastern Church - he shall otherwise not exercise immediate jurisdiction over any Church other than his own Patriarchate. The Pope of Rome may also hear the case of any theologian or cleric of the East who chooses to call on the Pope of Rome in this respect to issue a judgement. And that when the Pope of Rome, together with the Patriarchs and Bishops of the world, ratify the decisions of an Ecumenical Council, then, and only then, can he be said to be pronouncing infallibly (apart from the canonization of saints).

7) The Eastern Catholic Churches are to return immediately to their respective Mother Orthodox Churches, with sincerest apologies, once again, from Rome. The Congregation for the Eastern Catholic Churches is to be suppressed.

8) That each Church is to continue as before in perfect freedom and in the love of Christ, obeying His command to preach His Gospel of Peace to all mankind . . .

Respectfully submitted,

Alex, ICCBF

Ray,

I hate to come across as a naysayer, because my principal reason for being on the web is to promote knowledge and understanding that will, hopefully, some day be an integral factor in achieving of unity between and among the Eastern Churches. That said, the closest thing to what you describe that you can ever hope to see, at least until such time as the Holy Spirit leads the hierarchs of our respective Churches to formal communio in sacris, already exists. It's starring you in the face as you read this post.

Countless times, I have posted here and elsewhere about the unique nature of this Forum and I suspect that many see me as a pollyanna for my extreme views extolling its make-up, its content, and its function versus others of its genre. I post and read:

• here;
• on an Orthodox board;
• on a strictly Latin board;
• on the small EC forums of 3 Latin boards;
• on the EO and OO forums of an inter-denominational board; and,
• on 4 EC mail groups

Additionally, I read a couple of other Orthodox boards and mail lists.

Among all those, there is only 1 that approaches the ideal regarding which you've painted a word picture. That is here.

There is no place on the web that musters a membership of such ecclesial diversity as gather before their keyboards and read the words written here.

• Better than 1/3 of the 22 Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches (including one of the smallest) are represented by someone who posts regularly;
• every major and several smaller Eastern Orthodox Church has one or more members here who are also active participants;
• at least half of the Oriental Orthodox Churches have an unofficial voice on the screens of this forum;
• Latins who know and love the East and others who just wonder about it post here;
• Protestants from "High" and "Low" Churches do so; and,
• although I haven't seen him lately, at least one Muslim has posted here of late.

There isn't a continent, except Antartica, that isn't represented - I gave up keeping count of the countries. We have both Orthodox and Catholic priests posting, monks, deacons, subdeacons, cantors, readers, and iconographers. There are folks here who could legitimately label themselves as liturgists, theologians, scriptural scholars, historians. Then there's everyday folks like me, with no special knowledge or expertise except the ability to type.

We chat; we educate and are educated; we are amused and we laugh; we pray; we exchange ideas and share recipes; we discuss; we debate; sometimes we argue - even vehemently.

We are, above all, a community. We mourned the loss of Anhelyna's spotty dog and prayed for Father Don's ill cat. We rejoice in the news of one another's children graduating and give advice on child-rearing. We trust that someone here knows the answer to any inquiry, no matter how arcane and, inevitably, someone does.

Certainly, there are aspects of what you've described that aren't provided here - an information center that is focused exclusively on the positive - on factors that support the prospects for union - that have been vetted for inclusion by the unanimous vote of a blue ribbon panel.

But, as much as I believe that, too often, the focus is on differences rather than commonalities, reality is that the differences are what keep us apart and they needs must be understood and either be mitigated or overcome for union to occur. Wishing a wart wasn't there never made it disappear - nor will airbrushing it in the wedding photo.

Many years,

Neil

Brilliant post, Neil !! I would quote the whole thing except that would be redundant. Your whole post was beautiful and accurate.


Ray, I applaud your desire, and I most definitely applaud a "get it done" attitude.

But, I agree with Neil: this forum *is* getting it done. This forum is where everyone who wants can, freely, communicate with each other on the matter of Eastern Christianity, and share with each other, and disagree with each other, and respect each other, and that plus the love of Christ in us and through us **is** our unity.

As Vladimir Lossky wrote in his introduction to "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church" :

The hierarchs (God willing) will declare unity one day, but it won't mean much if the laity are not already united. That is what this forum does: in practice. This forum *is* the process of the beginning of unity. Every once in a while, someone asks "what would unia / communion look like?" This is it: this forum is the beginning; it is what unity and community look like.

--John

Hi all,

Ray is competent to defend his own ideas so I'll not attempt to do so for him. And I have no intention of trying to prove my worth by competing with such minds as Neils.

Nevertheless, I'd like to put my two cents worth in as to why I think something like what Ray has suggested is needed in addition to a forum like this.

First of all, this forum, though publicly accessable is in practice a 'private' forum. What I mean by that is that it is, as Neil pointed out, a family. The whole purpose of a forum like this is to foster communication and discussion and, in this forum in particular, to come to a common understanding of our various perspectives. Byzcath forum is not a public statement, it is a place of dialogue. Correct me if I am wrong, but to my knowledge, this forum has not and does not try to influence *directly* the hierarchy with the opinions of its posters. It is essentially a lay forum of and for the laity. If priests and bishops etc sign on and wish to participate they, in practice, have no more authority here than any other poster. THats just the way forums work.

On the other hand, I believe what Ray is suggesting is creating a site, not like this forum where learning and understanding is fostered, but taking what we have here and putting it into something of a concord or agreement (I wont go so far as to say a creed) and declaration of the laical (is that a word? lol) unity between churches and deliberately and directly seek to influence the opinions and movements of the hierarchies. A site where we are speaking directly to the Church saying "hey we are here...we are unified...now lets get cracking and have this formalized so we can share the Body and Blood."

Something along the lines of an organization to give some kind of official status and *public* exposure to what we experience here at byzcath is what I am thinking of. This would include contacting the hierarchy in the name of the orgainzation with our positions and opinions. Not just discussing these ideas among ourselves.

Jason

Well - I really wasn't thinking of laying anything 'on' anyone... but I do like the part about Peace to all mankind.. maybe we could make a rule like that.

Alex,

I agree with everything you posted about norms for a reunion of Eastern and Western Christianity. I *wish* I could wave a magic wand and make that happen. Alas, I can't. Nor can a group of laity. It has to come from the hierarchs. (But, there also must be the people's knowledge and consent for there to be a realistic chance of success). I don't know what to do to help make reunion happen except penance and prayer and continued dialogue. Perhaps this is laying the groundwork for a future reunion.

--John

interesting

OK, I'll bite. What do you mean, Pani Rose, by interesting?

--John