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The Orthodox thought/think that Catholicism was/is the greatest enemy.

The Catholics thought/think that Orthodoxy was/is the greatest enemy.

And so we do battle ... with each other, often restorting to missionary cannabalism.

In the meantime, the Muslims are slipping in like Trojans.

Then one morning ...

Dear Friends:

Joining Fr. Michael in his observations, cogently made, on the "Islam question," can we disprove his thesis that: ". . . [t]errorism is just another word for the [annihilation] of Christians by the Muslim extremists?"

The "necessity" or "urgency" of reunification of the Orthodox/Catholic sides, at least as a foil to the "jihadist" tendency of present-day Islam, should then be dispensed with more easily.

Amado

Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Dear Amado,

Islam is not the common enemy. Anyone who thinks so, and rushes to judgment, hate, and false unity that forces abandonment of the Apostolic Church would be falling into the trap of the one common enemy...the evil one.

I will refer everyone to my post as above. When we abandon our faith within ourselves, that is the enemy. We are distracted by externals right now.

In support of this position I refer everyone to St. John Chrysostom's "None Can Harm Him Who Does Not Injure Himself". I will quote briefly:

"For since neither wealth nor freedom, nor life in our native land nor the other things which I have mentioned, but only right actions of the soul, constititute the virtue of man, naturally when the harm is directed against these things, human virtue itself is no wise harmed. What then? Supposing someone does harm the moral condition of the soul? Even then if a man suffers damage, the damage does not come from another but proceeds from within, and from the man himself. "How so," do you say? When any one having been beaten by another, or deprived of his goods, or having endured some other grievous insult, utters a blasphemous speech, he certainly sustains a damage thereby, and a very great one, nevertheless it does not proceed from him who has inflicted the insult, but from his own littleness of soul. For what I said before I will now repeat, no man if he be infinitely wicked could attack any one more wickedly or more bitterly than that revengeful demon who is implacably hostile to us, the devil: but yet this cruel demon had not the power to upset or overthrow him who lived before the law, and before the time of grace, although he discharged so many and such bitter weapons against him from all quarters. Such is the force of nobility of soul."

Chrysostom was referring in this one example of many to JOB. Are our souls as pure? That we can praise God in misfortune, evils, betrayals? If they are, the Churchs that taught us have done their work well. We need not fear Islam, because nothing can sway our faith in God, and we need not fear death, because death brings us to Him we worship and adore before all else on this earth.

Islam is not our enemy. The sad state of our souls is. What distracts us from seeing that is also the enemy.

Gaudior, back ON the soapbox.

Dear Gaudior:

I think the flaw in your stance lies in viewing today's world as capable of becoming a utopia.

It can be done only in abstraction; but reality points despairingly otherwise.

This is, I think, the gist of Fr. Michael's hope and prayer for a "united front," or even just a semblance thereof, for Christianity to have a spitting chance against the "avowed" goal of radical Islam: the total eradication of "infidels" from the Earth.

The recent experience of the Church in East Timor, and other areas within the Indonesian archipelago, readily comes to mind where in this instance an entire island province of Christians had to endure the atrocities attendant in a civil war to free themselves from the subjugation by their Muslim-majority countrymen!

Anecdotal examples are many more in Africa and in the Middle East, where Christians are subjected daily to restrictions in the freedom to exercise their religious beliefs.

Be these as they may and to ease the burden on her faithful in Islamic countries, the Catholic Church is in various on-going dialogues with Muslim clerics for mutual understanding and respect. In addition, Apostolic Nuncios are primed for interacting with the governments of these host countries in cases where Muslim extremism rears its ugly head.

The past and present relationship between Christianity and Islam do not bode well for the future.

Amado

Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Dear Amado!

I do not believe the world capable of being a utopia. Nor was it when St. John Chrysostom wrote this. ONE look at his life will tell you what he endured.

Your problem seems to be that you want the utopia.
We would all like it, it would be wonderful. But God isn't going to ask us whether we followed Him when it was convenient. His Holy saints and martyrs who DIED being tortured confessing Him rather than renouncing Him are going to watch us while He asks us this, I am certain.

Does your prayer life depend on whether your church is united to Protestants? That is an Excuse. It is an "If only" that the evil one throws in your path as an excuse to keep you from your personal journey towards theosis.

"IF ONLY" The Muslims...IF only unity...

It does not matter. That is what St. John Chrysostom says. Whether we lose our homes, our health, our lives, as our glorified martyrs did, we would die with our souls and our virtue intact.
Murdered by Islamic fanatics for confessing Christ?

OK. That means a martyrs crown. Are you spiritually strong enough to emulate the Fathers an earn it, unwavering, if it became necessary in this fallen world, to choose between Christ, and death, and renouncing Him, and luxury ander apostasy? How many of us can look into our souls and say their Church has given them the strength of St. Sophia, for example? Or are our churches not teaching the Faith of our Fathers? Are we teaching Compromise over Steadfastness? Have we forgotten, as you seem to, that the Fathers wrote during a time of extreme persecution? That Christianity spent its early years in Catacombs, rather than compromise, and give the appearance of swearing falsely.

What profits us if we gain the whole world but lose our souls?

Look within yourself, find the Image and Likeness of Christ!

Look to your neighbor, and see that Image as well!

We are commanded to do this! If you feel this is utopian, then perhaps you do not understand your own faith enough to be discussing unity with others!

Gaudior, In prayer that we be strengthened in our faith.

Dear Gaudior:

Precisely because I (and other like-minded Catholics like Fr. Michael) know our own faith that we put into practice Christian precepts and that we have the confidence to face up to the challenges of everyday life.

Prayers without deeds enfleshing one's piety is as barren as the Sahara. Although we armed ourselves with trepidation, we extend our hand to all of humanity, including Muslims, in genuine friendship.

Others are content in living under the shadows of bygone days as if a utopian world was and can be nurtured by the past. I think I am not the one oblivious to reality.

Amado

If I read Father Michael Sopoliga's posting correctly, he is not demanding that everyone proclaim instant Eucharistic communion; he is calling for Christian solidarity in the face of an assault that threatents all of us. He is absolutely right; the Mohammedan assault does threaten all of us, and we should do everything possible to respond in such a way as to make it clear that an attack on any of our Churches is an attack on all of our Churches. Suggestion: in many countries the Mohammedans take advantage of freedom of religion to compel their own people to dress in public in Islamic garb. However, in several Mohammedan countries it is completely illegal for Christian clergy to dress in their appropriate garb. We should be demanding that our several governments notify the Mohammedans that we expect reciprocity. We should also be demanding that our several governments notify Saudi Arabia firmly that so long as Christianity is not tolerated in that country, no Saudi religious interference will be tolerated in Christian countries. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Christ is Risen!
Incognitus

Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Dear Incognitus,

We will not be in any position to enforce tolerance for Christian positions in foreign goverments and countries when anyone who wants to color a picture of the Nativity and hang it in their second grade classroom may find themselves to their total bewildrement the subject of a lawsuit at age seven. That was my point. We MUST look to what we absorb individually as Christians, before we try to lobby other governments. Otherwise, we look hypocritical and ridiculous.

As we are. Get God out of our lives! And yet, we fret, and scream, and demand to others. We need to address out hearts first. Then everything else will fall into place. Without it, we loose any claim to the moral high ground.

Gaudior, who is tired of: EU demands that Mt. Athos be open to women...Eastern Catholic needs being 'overlooked' by Rome...Anglican traditionalists having to tolerate leftist attacks ...and all other things that wear down our defenses, and keep us from being strong communities, secure in our faith...

Christ is Risen! I agree with Fr. Michael about the islamic threat and the need to call a spade a spade.With all due respect,I wonder if the Pope feels the same way.What saddens me is that Muslims have large families, while many Orthodox and Catholic seem to have, two,one, or no children.One doesn't have to be Einstein to figure out what will happen in a few generations.In this respect,we all need to wake up.God grant it!

Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Dear Fr. Al!

It goes back to what I am saying, doesn't it? Islam is a threat to us IF we allow it to be. If WE are weak in our faith. When we as Catholics and Orthodox place the material comforts of this world over the blessings of children, and do not trust God to decide for us when, and how many children we should have, we are weak in our faith.

WE have done this damage to ourselves, and cannot now claim ISLAM outnumbers us. If we unite, we have a united number of people who are STILL not placing Christ FIRST above all. Even if all Catholics and Orthodox start having five children per family tomorrow, unless we change our world view and make a radical shift in our perspective, all this will mean is MANY more lukewarm Christians.

We need to evaluate our FAITH, and reconsider what is important, following Christ, or following the world. If we follow Him, Islam threatens NO ONE, in any sense that matters. Remember Constantine Palaiologos, and Patriarch Gennadios Scholarios!

Kissing your right hand, Father!

In the Risen Christ,

Gaudior

Dear Gaudior:

I am not so sure. I am not so sure lukewarn Christians have anything to do with it - at all.

Please tolerat my musings. They are not a critism of you or anything you said.

It may seem tempting to consider the threat of radical Islam as a punishment on Christians for not being truly Christian. Biblically speaking, it could just as well be that this is a further trial to Christianity - a further purification. And not a punishment at all.

If every Christian down here - were perfectly Christian - peace would not come to the world. Because this world is a theather and the preparation for heaven, and can not ever be heaven itself. This things must happen �but woe to them by which they come.�

I believe that - we really do not know the higher reason. And because that can not be determined - we must look at the threat bluntly. Muslims, as well as Christians - have free will that God will not violate. Those who slide into radical Islam only have themselves to blame.

God listens to our excuses but He does not buy them. If the environment was the cause of us to step over the moral line - then we could rightly say to God "You - made me do it!" .. so we can see how empty these excuses really are.

I am one, who recognized the environment which fosters radical Islam (Israel vrs Palestinians, lack of Mid East democracy, clash of cultures etc..) but no matter the pressure and environmental conditions - what is it that makes on man turn to murder and another man raised in the same conditions - turn to peace and self improvement? Free will. The piano is not the thing that produces great music in the pianist or makes another pianist poor. It is the man himself, no matter the amount of external pressure - who ultimately decides by free will what he will do.

The other morning, at about 4AMN when I could not sleep any longer, I tuned in the TV and watched a shot documentary on a radical Muslim family which were Canadian citizens. Born in the mid east - the father was a close associate of Bin Satan (Laden) and the father and two of the sons were killed in the recent fighting in the hills of Pakistan (the long underground tunnel incident).

One son, just could not �do it any more� and decided to speak the truth. His father had trained all his sons to be suicide bombers. There was an interview with his sister as well. Long story short - I was witnessing the mentality which goes into creating a Stalin or a Hitler. Negotiations with these people are out of the question and no moral restrictions apply because - every immoral act done - is erased and heaven obtained by the suicide act.

Terror - is working for them because the West likes peace.

All in all - this war has just begun. But - this war will be far more devastating to the Arab world than to the Western world. Movements such as communism or Nazi like socialism - eventual bog down - because inherently it is a wolf which also eats its own kind. It wars with - everything and everyone.

It is a pity, that portions of Europe are letting American boys fight, so far. Historically, it has been when American gets involved that the tide turns. But right now Europe is content to let America drain. Believe me, if America was not facing and fighting them now - Europe (the back yard) would HAVE to. Europe knows that - and it is to thier shame that they step back and let America doing the dirty work.

Far more bombs will go off in Europe than in America - as Europe is the �back yard� and very within easy reach of the Muslim world. It is much easier to move men and weapons across land within Europe than into American (barrier by seas). So while America may see more acts of terror than just 9/11 - Europe will see far more numerous incidents. Any 'ism' trying to take over the world begins by radiating out from its geographical center. Communism took over Eastern Europe. Nazi invaded Poland, and bordering countries. The most violence of radical Muslim is both on the edge of the Muslin world and within the Muslim world.

Keep in mind also, that the main thing that Bin Laden has done - is wounded the Arab world. Far more Muslim blood is on Bin Laden's head and hands - than European and American blood. Bin Laden will eventually go down in Arab history as a mad man who brought destruction mostly - on the Muslim world.

Radical Islam has far less than 10% of the Muslim world. That portion may grow as radical Muslims are experts at deception and the lie. It has been a most valuable tool. The most valuable tool has been and will be - terror. Spain, and part of Europe ARE terrorized (fear). But like Hitler and Stalin - that can only last - so long. Unfortunately - that may be one full generation - but the fate of radical Islam is already sealed.

In the mean time, it is our duty to be practical, feet on the ground, and once more - step into the breech and fight.

I do feel sorry for the soldiers and their families that will suffer from this - and the innocent Muslims who also will die. But all this is taken into account by Him who judges each individually.

Heaven, is not here - and never shall be. Each generation will �hear of wars and rumors of wars�. So it has always been and so it will always be - down here.

This radical Muslim thing will eventual pass� and just like Nazi, and Communism� (the underlying ideology all being the same)� it is our part to face them and do what is morally right in the way of self defense (which includes aggression on the aggressor).

Thank you for letting me ramble on.

-ray

Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Dear Ray,

Far from taking it as criticism, I am pleased that you add your voice to this. I respect your comments very much.

But, you see, I am not saying Islam is a punishment from God, not that lukewarm Christianity is to "blame", except in the sole sense that the world does not take us seriously when we demand protection for Christians, because we do not accord them respect in THIS country. Safety, yes, respect, NO. In many places political correctness is such that you cannot place an icon on your desk at work, lest someone see it and be offended. But that is not the substance of my argument.

My argument is to side with St. John Chrysostom. As I posted, what of Islam? What if we are attacked? As St. John Chrysostom wrote those words, as he described Job, stripped of his health, wealth, children, and left festering on a dunghill, robbed of his reputation, had Job died at that moment, it would have been praising God. Therefore the Archenemy DID NOT TOUCH HIS SOUL.

How much more are we given that Job, we who have the knowledge of the Resurrected Christ? That promise of salvation? Islam is evil, let no one misunderstand me, but it CANNOT HARM OUR SOULS unless we allow it to. If we decide we will HATE, and CURSE all who follow Islam....and I know this is not what you are doing, but think back to how many non-Muslims who "looked" Muslim were beaten badly on Sept. 11 or 12th...we put ourselves in the wrong and darken our nous .

Peace on this earth is NOT attainable. I speak only of inner peace. And again I say this, if it ever came to a time when we are given a choice..."praise Allah or die" ...how many could calmly follow the example of our Saints and Martyrs knowing they had done all that was possible to live as Christians in the fullness of their faith?

Everyone is responding to the words of St. John Chrysostom with more arguments about the physical threat of Islam.

I saw what happened on September 11. I see the news. I take your point. Madmen on the loose can hurt you physically. They can kill you, maim you, destroy your property, lives and businesses. And they do it in the name of RELIGION. ISLAM.

But the loss of property is loss of material things only. But the physical hurt is physical hurt only. But the death of the body is the death of the body ONLY.

CHRIST IS RISEN FROM THE DEAD, TRAMPLING UPON DEATH BY DEATH, AND TO THOSE IN THE TOMBS, BESTOWING LIFE!

St. John Chrysostom speaks of injury to that immortal part of us...our souls...Islam cannot touch that, or injure it. WE alone have the power to injure ourselves thusly.

Gaudior, in peace.

Dear Gaudior:

Yes, oh yes� now I understand you better and you have touched on something very difficult. Something of which I had a time of struggle� and my own answer is my own answer and may not be for anyone else. What you have said has value, may I add my comments and meander in thoughts. Although perhaps I am still not reading you right fully.

You know that I am a man who believes in Providence, our day to day care, by a living God. I believe in this strongly because of some past experiences that had happened to me. Not only my own small experiences (which we all have had), but I have known several mystics and a daily cooperation with Providence is central to their lives. On several occasions, I have fully placed my life into the hands of God, literally and figuratively (figuratively being to own up to my own mistakes even if it cost me my job). I am talking of occasions and situations of which one is placed where, if one would give into the feelings to escape what surely seems to be bad consequences - one would have to sin to do it. Escape from the trials of God - is easy� setting ones self to abide by conscience and to accept whatever consequences God may decree - is insecurity of the unknown. Rather like falling off a cliff, backwards, and not knowing if there is anyone there to catch you. So I can vouch for the rewards of humility which I think at times is better named - humiliation.

Feeling such good rewards - one would be tempted to make a rule for one�s self to �Accept humiliation - become passive.� While I am in no way a saint (and I certainly can give proof of that!) I did come to understand why it is said that some saints come to embrace and desire - suffering. And one actually tends to seek these occasions (looking for them and hoping God is giving them again) eager for the spiritual rewards.

Within some short time, I had thought, that �here it is - God has arranged this Dark Night and all I need do is place my trust in Him and endure this dark night.� - - - but to my surprise - something was not right. While I had wanted the occasion to be a dark night - it was not resolving as such. My rule of �accept humiliation, become passive and accept whatever resolution God may decree.� was not working. After a few of these occasions, and while, seemingly within one again - it dawned on me that what God wanted - THIS time - was for me to face this situation - and �fight�. Courgae, fortitude, firm mind and heart and seek justice. What he wanted was my courage to seek justice (not revenge) and to do all that was proper to obtain that justice. In other words - He wanted me to become - aggressive and �fight� in seeking proper justice. Neither to be afraid nor to be passive but to get angry and fight a good fight.

Now let me run another situation parallel to this.

I grew up in a home that was, not good. I learned to become passive - to survive. Through my teen years - I could not defend myself (physically) I would become paralyzed - and my head would spin - when physically threatened. I could come to the defense of some one else (a friend) but when it came to myself that paralization would set in. I had trained myself too well - to be passive.

Upon getting married and having my first child - I came under physical threat from two men that I worked with. I had witnessed them doing illegal things and they knew me to be passive and so they physically threatened me. This became a game for them - and for several days I was beside myself. My old �passive programming� kicked in because I was threatened with physical harm. I could hardly function. Oh - my prayers went up but there was no relief. What did happen - was that I realized that if I were physically incapacitated - while that might be �alright� for me - the reality of that would harm my wife and child who depended on my capability to work a job. I had a vocation as husband and a duty to provide for my family. This - flipped a switch in me - and I found each man (one by one) and leaned my face into them and my eyes probably burned with fire as I let them know that I had was more than eager to face off with them if they continued as they had. They chaged their tune and that was that was that. From then on out I had gained the capability and the will - to defend myself and anyone else my conscience told me to defend.

Most people who know me find it difficult to believe - that I can be a bear! They seldom see that side. I wish I could tell you a couple of stories - but some would consider them to smack of a non-Christian attitude and I do not care to upset anyone else�s boat. I have been in some very dangerous situations (for the ordinary man) and each time no harm has come to me and the only reason I can think is that I knew full well what the Will of God was for me and to do that Will was my only attention.

To make this short� I am not Jesus Christ. He was called to suffer on a cross - and that should not be mistaken as to signify that Jesus was a pacifist. (I am not saying you are making that mistake). What I am called to do, the ordinary man, I only know day by day (there are no prophecies written about me in scriptures) and my lot is the ordinary man.

Unlike my childhood programming - I have now become - a whole man. One who has the freedom of will to chose - and to do what I think it right to do. I weigh what I believe may be the consequences and I weigh my conscience - and then I follow my conscience on the best path I can see.

Now, I can understand St. John Chrysostom view� I can understand his view as being proper to him� but I am not certain it is proper at all times for all men.

Let me explain.

There is absolutely nothing of glory in being dirt poor. If there were, than every homeless man would be a saint - and having a close and long association with hospital Emergency rooms - I know that most homeless are not saints. And there is nothing intrinsically holy in suffering - if there were then every masochist would be a saint.

There was a time, in the life of St. John of The Cross, just after his spiritual enlightenment (cause by the Dark Night of his imprisonment in Teledo) where for many many months - he punished his body with privations and beatings. In fact any paintings of John usually show him holding the whip which he used on himself. But no matter what he did - to imitate the harshness that was put upon him in Teledo - it did not result in the grand spiritual rewards that the God arranged Dark Night of Teledo had brought about. �Why?� John thought to himself �Why?� and the answer was because God himself must bring about the event of the Dark Night. God - must be the arranger. And so Saint John became even more - of a saint - once he learned that - and he ceased punishing himself - and when he suffered and died from cancer - the woman who washed all the monks clothing could pick out all of John�s clothing into a separate stack (all habits being alike) from the whole pile - because his smelled like the perfume of heaven when they should have smelled like the corruption of cancer.

And now - we turn to the gospels�

Jesus said to his disciples �If a man strikes you - offer him the other cheek to strike also.� This, of course, would seem like nonsense to our ordinary way of looking at things. This is like Jesus saying, today � �If a man punch you in the face .. Stand up.. And keep your hands down� and offer that he punch you in the face � again.�

Now with all due respect to them that see Jesus as mild and passive� and skip over how angry he often got and how violent a thing it was for him to take up ropes used to tether the animals in the court of the Temple and beat the money changers� there is nothing inherently holy about being punched in the face or offering the offender - to punch you again - while you stand passive and defenseless. If there were - then we should all run out and seek to die on the cross so that we might obtain the highest holiness possible!!

Here then is the difference� here is the �ingredient� which makes all the difference�

For Jesus - it was God�s own will - that he die upon the cross - and accept all the wounds and humiliation leading to that. It was plainly written about in the scriptures. And Jesus plainly knew his father�s will in this matter. While for us (who do not have such a plain prophesy of our lives) it is also - the Will of God.

While the external circumstances of any situation - may be exactly the same - what we are to do within them depends upon - what we know of the Will of God at the time. IN other words - conscience.

For a long time, in the early years of Christianity - God tolerated so many Christians who went to troublesome places seeking to die a martyrs death for God. Thank God for our sake - that God prevented some of these from having success! And through Providence - he forced them back to continue living and receive further enlightenment and be around to guide other souls and write some very insightful things. And we can see this mistaken attitude - today - in the radical Muslims who believe and take action - to die a martyrs death.

Martyrdom - be it Christian or Muslim - as an external event (dying in the name of God) has no inherent holiness to it. Neither does being passive (in the name of God) in the face of aggression.

If a man does not know his conscience - than there is no �right� he can do one way of the other. No spiritual benefit he can derive from any circumstance - no matter his choice.

The only �right choice� a man may make within any set of events - is the choice of - cooperation with the moment by moment Will of God revealed to us within our conscience. And any man who has made it a habit to take time to retreat from the world and sit in the stillness of his own conscience - has done his own part in learning to hear the of voice of God as it is revealed to us within our conscience. We, as it were, �know the master�s voice�. Even if we do not hear that voice well, God counts our intention to abide by it - to our credit.

Keep in mind that God is the creator and manager, moment by moment, of all things and all events of creation. This is almost - a concept to large to grasp� but every doctor of the church tells us it is true� and I echo that it is true. As far as external actions which we might chose from when faced with any very important and critical situation - there is no �right� or �wrong� in the sense of putting into effect some inevitable chain reaction. It is not what we �do� it is how well we listen and act - to the voice of his will - revealed to us within conscience. The results of anything - are - in a sense - none of our business - and God is able to have the results turn out in any which way he desires them to be. God never - ever - sits back - and allows US to run things. Never! What he wills - can not fail to come about - no matter what we do.

Going off into hypothetical �what if I think God is telling me to do this thing and it will result in this horrible circumstance� or that things.. Etc..� is a man trying to find a mental rule to replace having to know his conscience.

Now - what I have just said - can be a very hard thing. Our habit - is to trust the rules we know of psychology, physics, science, and any number of laws - to place them as greater or on a par with God - as if God himself is bound by them or limited by these laws in what he can do. As if God and we - have agreed - �these are the rules which both parties shall play the game.�

The souls progression - into Providence - is a progression. A progression of awareness and attention. I say again, as I have said in other posts, the mystical life is divided it into three stages which culminate in the spiritual marriage. Three stages - within which - the progression is made - from being very little aware of Providence as the active cause of daily events - to a full and habitual awareness that God is indeed alive an he is the one who is arranging daily events which come to us.

1) Purification (getting rid of the old false concepts of how the world runs)
2) Illumination (being given moments of insight into the reality of how the world is really run by Providence alone)
3) Unitive (where cooperation with God�s daily Will has now become habitual)

One can not simply - jump - into holiness. God applies his medicine (what events come to us and how we should act in them) according to his being able to fully know our hearts and minds. We can not really second guess him. Nor can we strike out on our own. One can not walk ahead of him (although he is very tolerant of our mistakes along the way).

My dear Gaudior, you are mostly right in all you say. Nothing can harm our immortal souls if we are united to good conscience.

I would guess that St. John Chrysostom himself was in the stage of knowing the value of Providential suffering - when he wrote his opinion we are now discussing. I believe that I was once told that he would have excommunicated any solider who went to war. Not knowing the full context I would have to venture the guess that he would not have been right to do that because while one may have the conscious choice to defend oneself or not - one has almost no choice when it comes to defending someone else who needs defense. And that defense extends to family and nation (extended family). I am - my brothers keeper. And I must trust elected leaders unless I have real reason to know I am being mislead (not just conspiracy theories).

The fact that there has existed the situation in many cases where someone has been excommunicated by the church while following his conscience and duty of vocation - and then later been proclaimed a saint by the same church - confuses matters. Unless one is wise enough to see that the excommunication itself was but a further trial sent by God himself - on the saint.

The book of Job is specifically about - the Dark Night. While it may use some things of historical fact - its purpose is not to be historically accurate but rather to take one along on the �ride of emotions� that one goes through when experiencing a Dark Night - were the person wonders �what have I done wrong to deserve this? What can I fix to end this?? � and to teach that the real cause of the Dark Night is that God is purging and purifying the mind and heart - so as to be more like Himself. It is a progression and we are often intellectually blind and insecure when God does his greatest work on us.

You say - inner peace. Yes. The peace of conscience. And you are exactly right - to the man who is united to conscience physical death has no harm. To the man who is not united to his conscience the threat of physical death may be the occasion of temptation to sin in order to escape the pains of temptation or what appears to be bad consequences.

Dear Gaudior, everything you say is true, and I think that when it becomes applicable is a matter of personal conscience.

>If we decide we will HATE, and CURSE all who follow Islam
>....and I know this is not what you are doing,
Right. This was not my thought or intention at all. I have Muslim friends for whom I would enter into harms way to protect. Maybe I should re-read my other post and see how people might be taking it to mean? Most times, I believe, I just confuse the heck out of everyone,

-ray

Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Dear Ray,

My true thanks! Your reply, as all your replies are, was a worthy one.

But to clarify my own:

I do not advocate, nor have I ever advocated passivity, only action without that inner knowledge of God. I had ever before me (and several times this week in various contexts) the image of Christ and the money lenders.

As you say, that sort of anger, and the sort of action that led to some of our saints being excommunicated for holding fast to their beliefs, when later the Church recognized them as true leaders and saints, is necesssary at times. But in order that our righteous action in defense of our country not harm our souls, we must live our lives ever striving toward Christ.

My dear brother, I thank you for sharing the episodes from your own life which show you understand. Pain is never easy to share, and I pray for you, and those who did you that hurt.

And again, I thank you for your most excellent replies!

Gaudior, in Christ, actively, not passively

It appears we are of the same mind for how, why, and if, to take action.

May God notice our attempts to know, and abide by his will, and put that to our credit.

Here is a portion of a prayer I say almost daily...

"Please accept as many times today that I attempt to live the gospel in actions of quietly doing Your will, as my efforts of love. Grant me to say, along with Your saints, that the guidance of Your goad comforts me."

Notice I say �attempt� meaning the intention in action. The results are out of our hands. And God may let us know later (also by conscience) that we did not quite listen well enough and that we had been somewhat mistaken on what his guidance was in the matter.

I learned many moons ago that God does not judge us by if we are intellectually right or wrong (as if the world were mechanical and we must figure out how it runs) but rather by our intentions ("Peace to men of good will") and the results of anything we do is entirely in the hands of God who works results according to his own purposes.

We hate, to be insecure, it is uncomfortable. We find security in being "right" and having things work out in the way we expect. We like to go by a way which we know and often our prayers to God are that he do things our way - but the way to heaven is going by a way which we often do not know. Abraham (faith) does not know the way to the promised land and so must follow one step behind Providence, day by day. Eventually - that becomes a habit (the unitive stage).

Along with spiritual writers of the early Church, we can lament that so few people make much speitiual progress because they do not know how God works in the soul, and do not attribute to Providence a actually being a living person who acts daily by his own mind and purpose. Indeed, Providence is a freindship extended to us, on a human level, a daily 'conversation' by which God assist us to walk - one step behind - as he leads - but even though God allows us �detours� as a friend would - he always has in mind his final goal of the formation of our own person - to be like His.

Now I have said too much, as always, and people might think that I practice what I preach.

Oh, by the way, regarding Jesus telling his disciples to turn the other cheek... I felt this morning that I should make it clear that this command of conscience (that is what Jesus was for the disciples) was directed to the disciples only, and for a time only, and had the purpose of throwing them upon Providence. No one could possibly strike an apostle unless God willed it to be so. And so Jesus had them give up their right to self defense for the period in which He would disclose to their experience that Providence was indeed in charge of everything and every event.

Later, Jesus told them differently and they were to defend themselves ("But now I tell you that any man who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one.") and we often see some disciple escaping some persecution - by dropping down a wall in a basket, or slipping out of town, etc.. going on the run. And at times other people came to the physical defense of the apostles. Because they we apostles sent - God reserved from them any occasion in which self-defense by violence could have been an option of choice. It just was not to-be for them. While we are not apostles sent in the same way. Our prayers should be that we too are reserved from such an occasion but if God sees fit otherwise - may we rise to courage and boldness and do what conscience bids us to do.

We, who would like to know the way, would love to find and follow a set of mental rules (laws) that �work� and that we can live by... We would like to live by intelligence and not conscience - but no one has ever been justified (sanctified) by the law (mental sets of rules to follow).

Spiritual progress is rather a day by day cooperation with conscience while we are set into the theater of arranged events and situations. The more we cooperate the more we come to 'know the master's voice' and the more and more does our own will come to the single motivation of cooperation with the Will of God as he gives it to us. Our daily bread.

I thank God that it is not my Providence to be involved in the gathering war. I, myself, need not have anxiety and fear it for myself or my immediate loved ones. My time, in which Providence applied medicine like that to me - has past. My anxiety is for those who (by God�s will and for their own good) must face it and be directly involved (Christian or Muslim). War is a tool which God sometimes uses - which I do not fully understand - but I must trust that it is such a tool - which it seems to me God deems he has to apply to every generation. I do not believe that there is any man who has ever lived who has been born, lived, and died, without be affected by some war or some form of overwhelming human violence - some where.

"Pray always, that you do not fall in temptation." Moments of dedicated prayer are times in which we sit closely and with full attention to God as he reveals himself in a mystery in our conscience. Pray during daily activities is giving our inner attention to our conscience. Temptations must come - but if we do not pray - as some type of habit - then we will surely fall within them when they come - and gain no benefit whatsoever.

As always, these are just my own thoughts.

-ray