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Saintclare,

Allow me to comment, although your post wasn't addressed to me. The "heart" of the Mass - regardless of whether it's the Novus Ordo, the Tridentine, or the Divine Liturgy - is the consecration of the elements, which through the epiclesis and the words of institution become the very Body and Blood of Christ.

Although there are things I would like to change about the Novus Ordo (O, to be Pope for a day!), I would say that it is a valid celebration of the Eucharist. Millions of Catholics receive the Body and Blood of Christ through it each week.

I'd also have to add that the Novus Ordo is responsible, in a way, for my being here today. It was precisely the Novus Ordo Mass that I experienced as a parochial school student many years ago that made such an impression on my young mind. Although the rite itself may be "new", there was a certain timelessness about it that I intuitively discerned. Many other former Protestants - especially evangelicals - have been drawn into the Catholic Church along the same lines.

I've never attended the Tridentine Mass, but I have attended the Divine Liturgy in both BC and EO parishes. I'd have to say that if I were "comparing" liturgies, I would definitely prefer the Divine Liturgy. But there has never been any doubt in my mind that the essence of the liturgy was the same regardless of whether it was Eastern Rite or Latin Rite.

Dave
"Mere Catholic"

If you ever get to Chicago and wish to see the Novus Ordo offered as I think it was intended go to St. John Cantius. In fact, it's the only Novus Ordo Mass to which I will go.

I heard a small portion of Milt Rosenberg's program on WGN last night. He had the former NY Times religion editor on. Sadly, I've forgotten his name.

He commented that the greatest need in Roman Catholicism if it hopes to recaptivate the imagination of the people is to celebrate the Mass with passion the way it is intended to be celebrated. All too often the Mass is celebrated by those who seem to be sleep walking through it. If I were a bit more profane I might suggest that many of those offering it seem as if they've sampled a bit too much of the wine before Mass.

Anyway, I know that the Latin Mass in whatever form can be celebrated with reverence and awe. It just isn't done often enough.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Friends,

I love the Novus Ordo Mass on EWTN - very reverent and they even throw in some Latin.

But the preaching is what also makes a big difference - I love Fr. Angelus, the old, wonderful Irish Franciscan.

But I don't like what I've been reading on the Questions and Answers about the Eastern Church i.e. Dr. Gregson.

He hasn't a clue about Eastern theology and yet he pretends to expound on it.

KOBZAR shared a link with Angela and myself today from EWTN - really disturbing.

Alex

I get no credit, I'm the one who sent it to him yesterday. :p

Aside from what Dave submitted, about the heart of the Mass being the Sacrifice and the Eucharist, I'll offer my own input as well.

Don't suppose I'm clueless about the general reconstruction of the Roman Catholic Mass. I know all about Annibale Bugnini, etc. I don't think it matters who constructed the Mass, as long as its reverent. I believe the Novus Ordo to very reverant and holy. Take some time to actually read the text of the Novus Ordo. What's so objectionable? The only objection I have concerning the entire situation is that the N.O. is oftentimes not celebrated as REVERENTLY as it should be. But neither was the Tridentine.

Point me out something truly offensive or unacceptable in the text of the N.O. and then I might reconsider. Until then, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Logos Teen

Vladimir Soloviev was received by Fr. Nicholas Tolstoy, a Russian Catholic priest.

Amen. And perphaps the great success of the Latin Mass orders in fostering vocations, both monastic and parochial, should be a signal to some in the Latin Church hierarchy.

Wasn't Soloviev reconciled to the Russian Orthodox Church at his death??

Yes, it's all Mor's fault After reading the article Alex had asked me to post it here, but he beat me to it.

Andrij

Dear Teen Logo,

Who was the Freemason involved with the N.O.?

Are you referring to Cardinal Villot?

You would be correct, but I don't think he was directly involved.

During my days as a promoter of the UC Patriarchate, we had an article about the Cardinals who were Masons in the Vatican.

Our offices received many, many phone calls from U.S. Roman Catholic priests who wanted an English translation of that article to distribute to their flock . . .

Alex

Dear Andrij and all,

Please join me in giving a communal hug of affection and acknowledgement to Qathuliqa Mor Ephrem of New Orleans and the entire South:

O Great One!

Your wisdom is boundless, your integrity endless and your charm beyond compare!!

Awed by the flashing light of your countenance,

Alex

Annibale Bugnini was allegedly a Freemason.

But Alex,

Isn't there a danger of falling into the realms of conspiracy theory when talking in broad strokes of "Freemasonry and their plots"?? I have heard too many rather loopy people frankly talk about freemasonry (especially years ago when I used to attend Indult Trad Masses

Well, Alex, I never used the word "freemason." I believe that was SaintClaire. I don't draw connections between freemasonry and the reconstruction of the Mass, except for the little tidbit LatinTrad mentioned about Bugnini having freemasonry connections.

Logos Teen

Dear Brian,

Well, the Masons have been involved with the Catholic Church for centuries, as you know.

Until 1707, the Masonic Order was a legitimate Catholic Order to which even Popes belonged.

They were one of the medieval guilds, as you know, and took the vow to the "Four Holy Crowned Ones" or masons who were martyred near the Temple of Jerusalem.

And the Catholic Templar Order was also involved.

In 1707, the Catholic Church excommunicated the Masons for a number of infractions.

I've come across Catholics who are Masons - and apparently in very good standing in the Church, bishop's permission et al.

Fr. Eugene Kennedy wrote a lot about Catholic/Masonic relations.

My next door neighbour is an Antiochian Orthodox Christian and a high-ranking Mason, very involved in his parish.

I thought it was common knowledge that there were certain Cardinals who belonged to Masonic lodges and whose ancestral families, also Masonic, served the Church etc.

I think the article I mention was sought out by Latin priests intent on hurling something at the Vatican for some reason . . .

Alex

Well, according to this document [catholicculture.org] Catholics are explicitly *still* forbidden to join the Masons - the reason being that Masons still have anti-Catholic goals & teachings.

Alex, perhaps those Catholics you know who belong to the Masons actually belong to some other fraternal organization - there are a lot of 'em (perhaps this one [loyalorderofthewaterbuffalo.com] ).