www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Is the BCC Roman Catholic?

Greetings All!

I'm back. After a much needed vacation.
OK I admit the subject line was just to get your attention, but I have come up w/ something that left me thinking...
In many of my posts I have mentioned the Maronite Church, which is more open to accept Roman Catholic practices than are other EC churches. Whether this is right or not is not an issue for this post.
On a Maronite website, which I will provide the site later, I pulled up the following:


-Q1. Are Maronites Roman Catholics?

This question is frequently asked by both Maronites and Roman Catholics.
The simple answer is yes - All Maronites are Roman Catholics. The one,
holy, Catholic and apostolic Church, as founded by Christ, spread to the
ends of the earth. The Universal Catholic Church is a communion of
Churches (LG, n23) and has been traditionally divided into East and
West. The Western tradition is the Roman tradition (Roman/Latin
Catholic) and the four original Eastern traditions are Antiochian,
Alexandrian, Byzantine and Armenian. All of these traditions form the
Roman Catholic Church, not just the Western tradition. The Maronite
Catholic Church belongs to the Patriarchate of Antioch.-

Well, what I always thought was, that all Eastern Catholic churches were simply part of the Catholic Church, not Roman Catholic, or so I was left to believe, especially on this forum.
I realize that the Maronites are the only ECC that has no non-Catholic or orthodox counterpart, and they have been latinized.
Yet, their rank or rather their status as a sui juris church is higher than that of the BCC. As one knows the BCC is a metropolitan church and the Maronite church is a patriarchal church. The point here is the Maronite church holds this position, so that leaves me w/ my question. Which is, could the BCC be considered Roman Catholic?

Thanks for your time!

Que Dios los bendige a todos! (May God Bless You All)

ProCatholico

No, BCC is NOT considered Roman Catholic. Maronites is NOT considered Roman Catholic either. All of the other Eastern Churchs are NOT considered Roman Catholic.

What is considered a Roman Catholic is a Roman Catholic.

PERIOD.

You mentioned, "..all these traditions form the Roman Catholic Church...."

NOT SO!

You said, "I realize that the Maronites are the only ECC that has no non-Catholic or orthodox counterpart, and they have been latinized"

That is a very inaccurate statement. What do you mean by "non-Catholic?" The Maronites are fully Catholic as the Romans are. Roman Catholic Church is not the same thing as the Catholic Church. Yes, UNFORTUNATELY the Maronites have been Latinized. There is a big call by JPII that all Eastern Churches restore their true traditions.

You said, "Yet, their rank or rather their status as a sui juris church is higher than that of the BCC."

Again, you are very inaccurate. What does that mean? There is no such thing as "rank" of a sui juris Church. They are all equal. Each sui juris Church have a head such as Metropolitan/Patriarch. Sui Juris Church means "Self-governing" church and still maintain communion with Pope of Rome.


I am Catholic, but NOT ROMAN Catholic!

Long Live the Pope

spdundas

[Again, you are very inaccurate. What does that mean? There is no such thing as "rank" of a sui juris Church. They are all equal. Each sui juris Church have a head such as Metropolitan/Patriarch. Sui Juris Church means "Self-governing" church and still maintain communion with Pope of Rome.]

Amazing! If what you say above is true, then why are you all in here complaining about ROME taking so long to SELECT a successor to Metroploitan Judson? Why aren't you doing it yourselves? What in God's name do you think the words 'self governing' mean?

Bob

Some Byzantine Catholics might feel insulted by the association, but they are really Hellenic Christians with a sense of adventure and the lust to discover, experience, and know what great spiritual truths lie just beyond the horizon;they have a broader vision (much broader than most Orthodox and Roman Catholics) of the Holy Church; and like the great Odysseus, they have not lost their sense of exploration and discovery, especially the quest for a deeper spirituality that is reflective of the undivided church of the first millenium.

They are, spiritually and aesthetically, "Greeks" in the most noble sense. We should be proud of them because they are part of our common patrimony and have survived the most trying and challenging of temptations and persecutions. And we are blessed by their broad and beautiful view of the Holy, but battered and sometimes bleeding, Church of the Living God. (The operative word is "Living," and not just living in the past!)

I have come not only to admire them but, truly and without hyperbole or deceit, love them.

And that is the evangelion aleithia...the gospel truth.

We Orthodox (Greeks, Russians, etc.), would please God by becoming more like them, but retaining our freedoms and liberties. If Rome can guarantee our freedom and liberties, we can overlook certain dogmatic...uh..."contradictions" while moving quickly toward eucharistic intercommunion.

If our hierarchs (Catholic and Orthodox) were as wise and brilliant as they want us to believe they are, they would immediately grant dispensations, to those of us who are questing spirits, which would allow us to commune in both communities, but with no strings attached, and become the living icons of the spiritual "mobility" that was the blessing of Christian life in the first millenium.

I would volunteer for such a great experiment of the spirit,--- me, a worthless sinner,--- because I want to grow in Christ by living a deeper and more "catholic" life within the Ecumenical Church. I am sure there are Latin-rite and Byzantine-rite Catholics who are my soul-mate brethren and are also adventurers of the spirit and are chaffing at the bit to set sail on a similar journey, to discover the mysteries of Orthodoxy, but with no strings attached.

Just my rambling nonsense. But I think such an experiment could truly become "something beautiful for God" (remember her?), and, in some small way, help heal our mutual wounds. We must outgrow this perverse disease of division and hate that we have suffered from and with for so long and that we almost seem afraid to be healed of! Crazy. Heh! Who ever said Christians are sane?


In all things...charity.


Bill

(PS-I wrote this before I had my second cup of Turkish coffee. Of course, those meanspirited folks---who like to delude themselves into believing that they are "true believers" and "zealots of the pope," or the "soldiers of Orthodoxy," you know, the sociopaths and psychopaths who, even in Paradise, will insist on being accusers of the brethren and,---always!---advisers to and counselors of God, who (of course!) will insist on reminding Him of "the Truth," especially as they see it and insist that when the redeemed are gathered about the Throne and Altar of God, no mere woman be allowed to defile the same by touch or mere presence...All women! All women! Move to the back! Move to the back!...including the Theotokos and the woman "healed of the issue," who had the temerity to actually touch Jesus! Oh! True Believers! What blasphemy! What audacity!--- would quickly quash anything that dared to draw others into a more loving and deeper relationship with Christ and His Holy Mother, Maria.

Excuse me for taking up your time. What could I have been thinking? No wonder so many Catholics and Orthodox are looking to the evangelicals and others for a deeper relationship with Christ. No thinking person can blame them.)



[This message has been edited by bill tomoka (edited 08-18-2001).]

Spdundas writes:

"No, BCC is NOT considered Roman Catholic. Maronites is NOT considered
Roman Catholic either. All of the other Eastern Churchs are NOT
considered Roman Catholic.
What is considered a Roman Catholic is a Roman Catholic.
PERIOD."

Obviously you did not read my post carefully. I did not write that the Maronites were Roman Catholic, I thought like you that they and all ECC were just Catholic. However the statement came from a Maronite Catholic website, NOT me! Please dont put words in my mouth.


"You mentioned, "..all these traditions form the Roman Catholic
Church...."
NOT SO!"

Again, I did not write this, I got it from a Maronite website.

"You said, "I realize that the Maronites are the only ECC that has no
non-Catholic or orthodox counterpart, and they have been latinized"
That is a very inaccurate statement. What do you mean by "non-Catholic?"
The Maronites are fully Catholic as the Romans are. Roman Catholic
Church is not the same thing as the Catholic Church. Yes, UNFORTUNATELY
the Maronites have been Latinized. There is a big call by JPII that all
Eastern Churches restore their true traditions."

What is so inacurrate? I did write this statement myself, and it is true. The Maronites are the only church in the Vatican communion of churches that have no orthodox counterpart or non-Catholic (meaning Oriental orthodox, which are not catholic)counterpart. For example the Melkite Catholic Church has the orthodox counterpart of the Antiochian orthodox church. Likewise the Armenian Catholic Church has an orthodox counterpart as well as a non-Catholic counterpart, an oriental orthodox church. The Maronites pride themselves as being the only Catholic church that has no counterparts.

"You said, "Yet, their rank or rather their status as a sui juris church
is higher than that of the BCC."

I stated this as well. What I mean to say is, as a patriarchal church (the highest order of self-governance in church structure)Maronites hold the position that they are Roman Catholic, yet the BCC as a metropolitan church vehemently opposes the view. So I always thought and followed the position that all the ECC were just Catholic, not Roman. The website however states otherwise. As you'll recall there are Patriarchal churches, then Major Archepiscopal churches, Metropolitan churches, and those that currently have no real hierarchy.

"Again, you are very inaccurate. What does that mean? There is no such
thing as "rank" of a sui juris Church. They are all equal. Each sui
juris Church have a head such as Metropolitan/Patriarch. Sui Juris
Church means "Self-governing" church and still maintain communion with
Pope of Rome."

Well, to an extent, patriarchal churches enjoy more autonomy and self-governance than do metropolitan churches. The churches are equal in holding the Truth. Perhaps one day the BCC will reach patriarchal status.


Thank you for your time
God Bless,

ProCatholico

Spdundas writes:

"No, BCC is NOT considered Roman Catholic. Maronites is NOT considered
Roman Catholic either. All of the other Eastern Churchs are NOT
considered Roman Catholic.
What is considered a Roman Catholic is a Roman Catholic.
PERIOD."

Obviously you did not read my post carefully. I did not write that the Maronites were Roman Catholic, I thought like you that they and all ECC were just Catholic. However the statement came from a Maronite Catholic website, NOT me! Please dont put words in my mouth.


"You mentioned, "..all these traditions form the Roman Catholic
Church...."
NOT SO!"

Again, I did not write this, I got it from a Maronite website.

"You said, "I realize that the Maronites are the only ECC that has no
non-Catholic or orthodox counterpart, and they have been latinized"
That is a very inaccurate statement. What do you mean by "non-Catholic?"
The Maronites are fully Catholic as the Romans are. Roman Catholic
Church is not the same thing as the Catholic Church. Yes, UNFORTUNATELY
the Maronites have been Latinized. There is a big call by JPII that all
Eastern Churches restore their true traditions."

What is so inacurrate? I did write this statement myself, and it is true. The Maronites are the only church in the Vatican communion of churches that have no orthodox counterpart or non-Catholic (meaning Oriental orthodox, which are not catholic)counterpart. For example the Melkite Catholic Church has the orthodox counterpart of the Antiochian orthodox church. Likewise the Armenian Catholic Church has an orthodox counterpart as well as a non-Catholic counterpart, an oriental orthodox church. The Maronites pride themselves as being the only Catholic church that has no counterparts.

"You said, "Yet, their rank or rather their status as a sui juris church
is higher than that of the BCC."

I stated this as well. What I mean to say is, as a patriarchal church (the highest order of self-governance in church structure)Maronites hold the position that they are Roman Catholic, yet the BCC as a metropolitan church vehemently opposes the view. So I always thought and followed the position that all the ECC were just Catholic, not Roman. The website however states otherwise. As you'll recall there are Patriarchal churches, then Major Archepiscopal churches, Metropolitan churches, and those that currently have no real hierarchy.

"Again, you are very inaccurate. What does that mean? There is no such
thing as "rank" of a sui juris Church. They are all equal. Each sui
juris Church have a head such as Metropolitan/Patriarch. Sui Juris
Church means "Self-governing" church and still maintain communion with
Pope of Rome."

Well, to an extent, patriarchal churches enjoy more autonomy and self-governance than do metropolitan churches. The churches are equal in holding the Truth. Perhaps one day the BCC will reach patriarchal status.


Thank you for your time
God Bless,

ProCatholico

"Perhaps one day the BCC will reach patriarchal status."

They already have: The Melkite Greek- Catholic Church is Byzantine and patriarchal.

You obviously must mean the Ruthenian Church.

Bill


[This message has been edited by bill tomoka (edited 08-18-2001).]

Just for clarification of the discussion:

According to the current canon law for Eastern Catholics, Eastern Catholic Churches with a major archbishop and higher elect their own bishops via a synod and then send the results of the election to the pope who may confirm or reject the candidate for just cause.

Since Melkite-Byzantine Catholics in the Mid-East are a patriarchal Church they, therefore, elect their own bishops and patriarchs and simply inform Rome. [I have no doubt, however, that Rome at least watching the whole process to make sure that the candidates are conservative, orthodox Byzantines. Any rejection by Rome would certainly happen long before the final vote.]

Since Ukrainians in Ukraine have a major archbishop (which they are trying to promote to patriarch) they follow the same practice as the Melkites.

Byzantine Catholics in America are outside of their patriarchal territories and the process is different.

The Byzantine-Ruthenian Church is a suri iuris Church (and are kinda-sorta autocephelous but not really) and not have a major archbishop. In a united Church the bishops of this Church would be elected by the synod of bishops of the Patriarchate of Constantinople (or, perhaps, merely the synod of bishops in America). Since they are not in communion with their patriarch and do not have a major archbishop the Council of Hierarchs submits their choice(s) to Rome and Rome makes the official appointment (through the apostolic nuncio).

Both the Byzantine-Melkites and Byzantine-Ukrainians in America have close ties to their patriarch / major archbishop so the synod of bishops elects the bishops for America (or anywhere else outside the "home" territories) subject to confirmation by Rome. I am not sure as to the practice of the Byzantine-Romanians and other Eastern Catholics.

Not ideal, but this is the way it works at the moment.

--

Regarding the Maronites, they are perhaps the most latinized of the Eastern Churches. It is not surprising that many consider themselves to be "Roman Catholics with a funny Mass" since this is what they have been taught for centuries. It is only now that they are rediscovering their authentic Eastern Christian roots..

Administrator

Bill writes:

-"Perhaps one day the BCC will reach patriarchal status."
They already have: The Melkite Greek- Catholic Church is Byzantine and
patriarchal.
You obviously must mean the Ruthenian Church.-

Of course I mean the Byzantine Ruthenian church. The Melkite Greek Catholic church is not part of the BCC, by which I mean the Byzantine Catholic Church-based in Munhall. The Melkites are part of the Byzantine RITE, not the Byzantine Church. They have their own patriarch I know, I've met him, the BCC does not.

Blessings,

ProCatholico

Thanks for the correction. I'm Orthodox and not familiar with all the details.

First many on this forum occassionaly make mistaken references to latinizations, using the present tense. Even comments are made about (in the present tense) impositions of latinizations by the Latin Church. Rare, local individual exceptions may exist, but it is really incorrect to be suggesting any new latinizations are being imposed or widely adopted in any of the eastern churches.
To the main question, this is the continual problem here where some (not you, proCatholico, who I assume asks a sincere question) pretend terms cannot have multiple meanings or uses and get their panties in a bundle over it.

The best use would to refer to the communion of Christians in union with the Pope of Rome as "Catholics" or the "Catholic Church". Nevertheless, the term "Catholic" is also used in different ways.

Teh best use of "Roman Catholic" would be to mean Catholics of the Roman (Latin) rite.

Nevertheless, depending on local situations, varing uses occur for varying reaosn. The use of the term "Rum" in the Middle East being one.

The difficulty our Church had with parish property disputes is another.

So I would say your internet site uses the less prefered nomenclature, but one need not read some great theological statement to it. Their point is simply that they are Christian in communion with Rome.

K.

Administrator,

Is there any movement to change our Byzantine-Ruthenian status or relationship to the Archbishop-Patriarch of Kiev? If not why not? If so could you describe it?

Dan Lauffer

Byzantine Catholics in America are outside of their patriarchal territories and the process is different.

The Byzantine-Ruthenian Church is a suri iuris Church (and are kinda-sorta autocephelous but not really) and not have a major archbishop. In a united Church the bishops of this Church would be elected by the synod of bishops of the Patriarchate of Constantinople (or, perhaps, merely the synod of bishops in America). Since they are not in communion with their patriarch and do not have a major archbishop the Council of Hierarchs submits their choice(s) to Rome and Rome makes the official appointment (through the apostolic nuncio).

Both the Byzantine-Melkites and Byzantine-Ukrainians in America have close ties to their patriarch / major archbishop so the synod of bishops elects the bishops for America (or anywhere else outside the "home" territories) subject to confirmation by Rome. I am not sure as to the practice of the Byzantine-Romanians and other Eastern Catholics.

Not ideal, but this is the way it works at the moment.

Without wading into this discussion too deeply, Melkites are certainly members of a Byzantine Catholic Church but are not members of the Byzantine Catholic Church of Pittsburgh (Ruthenian). There are currently nine ethnically / geographically based Byzantine Catholic Churches (Melkite, Ukrainian, Ruthenian, Romanian, Greek, Yugoslav, Bulgarian, Slovak and Hungarian) and four Byzantine Catholic Communities without hierarchs (Russians, Belarussians, Georgians and Albanians). This is the equivalent of stating that Greek, Russian and Antiochian Orthodox are all members of local Byzantine Orthodox Churches (although these local Orthodox Churches enjoy a much greater amount of autonomy than do the Byzantine Catholic Churches). All of these local Orthodox Churches are inheritors of the theology and liturgy that matured in Byzantine Constantinople, yet each is a member of a different patriarchal Church.

In the next few weeks we will be making public several new and major upgrades to this website. One of them will include the full text of Fr. Ron Roberson's book "The Eastern Catholic Churches" which provides a clear explanation of all of the Eastern Churches.


CD,

There is no current effort to alter our suri iuris Byzantine-Ruthenian status. It is my personal hope that all Byzantine Catholics in America (Ruthenian, Ukrainian, Melkite, and etc.) someday cut all ties with the original homelands and create a Byzantine Catholic patriarchate here in the United States. Maintaining ethnic jurisdictions here in the New World is senseless. I do realize that we are probably not far enough from the days of the emigration from our spiritual homelands in order for such a step to be accepted by many in our respective Churches. Perhaps in another generation or two.

Admin

To Solve all the problems, anyone who is in communion with the pope is Catholic. Anyone who is not is a non-catholic. Simple as that. We are all part of One Holy, Apostolic Catholic Church.

I really don't like getting involved in the discussions, but it is not quite as easy as Iohannes suggests.

It is certainly true that the average man on the street does not think of the term "Catholic" as referring to the Orthodox, but those who are Orthodox have every right to this term. It is the clear teaching of the Catholic Churches in communion with Pope John Paul II that the Orthodox are part of the "One Holy, Apostolic Catholic Church". We just have to accept and live with the fact that terminology means different things when used by different people.