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ProCatholico,

Maronites is NOT Roman Catholic! I don't care what the priest said, he is inaccurate! I've seen other websites that is of Maronite Churches and they usually have history of Maronites, they NEVER said they were Roman Catholics. They never claim or said that Maronites came from Roman Church.

Maronites came from Syrian Church (I think Western Syrian rather than Eastern Syrian?) Anyway..the answer is NO.

BCC is NOT Roman Catholic Church either! How many times Do I have to tell you that before I get it to your head?

This website of this Maronite (which you posted on the forum) is obviously SERIOUSLY LATINIZED. Big time. That is not right, the Holy Father called all Eastern Catholic Churches (including Maronites) to reclaim their full heritage and tradition and to de-latinize it completely.

Obviously they have having identity crisis.

And thank goodness that BCC is progressing faster now to de-latinize the churches. I'm glad that the invasion of the Roman Catholic Church is OVER!

It's best that the Romans stick their noses out of our church and need to stick in theirs since they have lots of problems. We can take care of ourselves, thank you.

spdundas

It would appear that you are correct: I too came across more than one Maronite website which stated the same thing. Typical is this found at the International Maronite Foundation:

"The Maronites are members of the Maronite Church, one of the three original churches of Antioch, whose spiritual head is the Patriarch of Antioch who resides in Bkerke, Lebanon. Maronites are part of the Roman Catholic Church and recognize the Pope of Rome as Supreme Pontiff. The present Patriarch, His Beatitude Nasrallah Butros Sfeir, is a member of the College of Cardinals." http://www.maronet.org/who_maronites.htm

I'm not sure what to say, other than what I already have: it takes time to recover that which was lost, leading to confusion and contradictions in the meantime. The Maronite Church has no corresponding Eastern Orthodox Church from which it came. Their history would seem to indicate a fierce loyalty to Rome, stemming not only from spiritual reasons but also political (Rome & the West helped them best they could during periods of persecution). It appears that they have become quite latinized during all this. Read some of their history here:
http://www.bkerke.org.lb/themaronites.html#The Maronites and Rome

Notice that Latin Catholic Religious established most of the schools and the close relationship between the Maronites and Rome over the years. This does not appear to be a forced latinization, but one of free adoption (consciously or not) by the Maronites and mistake on the part of Westerners.

Notice the very Latin Catholic liturgical garb of His Excellency, The Most Reverend Hector Youssef Doueihi, S.T.D., Bishop of the Eparchy of Saint Maron of Brooklyn: http://www.stmaron.org/.

In the end, however, this belief that Maronites are Roman Catholics is erroneous and incompatible with the teachings of Vatican II. Perhaps someone should send the good bishop an email.

Pax Christi,
John

To borrow a line from Dr. John, bite me. Get over yourself for we have no interest in your Church.

Alex,

I've moved your post and responded to it in another thread. You can find them here:
https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/Forum4/HTML/000458.html

Pax Christi,
John

As has been noted above, once again, language has worked its heinous effect upon the discussion.

Roman Catholic means just that: Catholics who follow the law and rituals of the Roman Church. Maronite Catholics or just plain Maronites are those who follow the law, customs and liturgies of St. Maron of Lebanon. While the term: "Roman Catholic" has come to mean "under the Pope", it is clear that the Maronites (and others) could feel completely justified in using the term "Roman Catholics" to describe themselves in English. A glance at the French texts on Maronite websites, however, describes them as 'catholique', no Roman. (I can just IMAGINE what they call themselves in Arabic!!)

So, are Maronites "Roman Catholics"? In English: 'yes'. In French: 'no'. In Latin ecclesiastical documents: 'no'. (I have no idea about the Arabic.)

So, I think it best for everyone to learn at least 3 or 4 languages (Nyuk, nyuk!!) to avoid linguistic complications of this sort. [In reality, I would be grateful if people would just learn decent English. Errr.... elsewhere, not here on the forum.]

If you want a chilling experience, go to the Maronite Liturgy and read the closing priest's prayer: "Remain in peace, O Holy Altar of the Lord, for I do not know if I will return to you to offer sacrifice......" It is the most heartfelt 'official' prayer I have ever had the privilege of hearing. (If I find it in the pile of book-rubble, I will post it.)

Blessings!

If you have no interest in my Church, then why are you on this FORUM?

DUH!

Dear Friends,

Further to Dr. John's luminous post, the Milanese/Ambrosian Liturgy has always contained a prayer for the "Pope."

Liturgical scholars have now come to the surprising conclusion that this reference is to the Archbishop of Milan, and not to the Pope of Rome.

What's in a word . . .

Alex

All:

Thanks for posting everyone. IrishJohn, I agree w/ your last post completely in regards to the Maronites, and thank you all for your input. To conclude this topic, let us remember the following.

1. The Maronites are Eastern Catholics of the Syro-Antiochian rite.

2. However those Maronites who wish to state that they are Roman, should do so, and those who do not, should be respected as well. B/C most non-Latin Catholic disagree w/ the term Roman in their name, they should not judge other non-Latin Catholics, who have chosen the name for themselves.

3.Lets call everyone how they wish to be called. If some Maronites wish to say that they are Roman, lets respect that.

Thank you all for your time
And
God Bless You All,

ProCatholico

Dear ProCatholico,

There is a sense in which every Byzantine Christian can call himself or herself a "Romaios" and a member of the "Rum Millet."

The term "Roman" doesn't mean quite that today.

However, the term Byzantine, as one priest explained it to me, means "New Roman."

This is why the Eastern Orthodox have reserved the term "Romaios" or "Rum" to themselves (the Turks called the Patriarch of Constantinople the "Patriarch of the Romans.")

They call the West the "Latin" Church and the West started to call the East the "Greek Orthodox Church," against to show that the East had "fallen away" from the heritage of the Rum Millet.

Believe it or not.

Your favourite Uniate (in spe)

Alex

Right, like my Croatian friend who insists that I am "Greek Orthodox" --- ("look, the Croats are Roman Catholic and the Serbs are Greek Orthodox, like you").

:-)

Brendan

Dear Brendan,

Does your Croatian friend know Kama Sutra ?

I don't mean the book . . .

Wow, I didn't know Orthodox Christians were allowed to entertain friendships with Croatians .

And you speak with Uniates and have an Armenian spouse . . .

For Heaven's sake, Brendan, be careful whenever you are around any Greeks

You will always be a pre-eminent Romaios in my book!

Alex

[This message has been edited by Orthodox Catholic (edited 08-21-2001).]

Alex writes:

[Wow, I didn't know Orthodox Christians were allowed to entertain friendships with Croatians]

Watch it Alex! My paternal grandfather was born and raised in Makarska and from the Croation aristocracy. I'm only half Carpatsko Rus! I can make reseverations on the internet to stay at the very house he was born & raised in. The communists confiscated it and it is now Hotel right on the Adriatic coast. It's called the Hotel Kastelet.
Not too many Pravoslavny can make that claim!

FWIW, I know of at least one Croatian-American who is a convert to Orthodoxy.

Dear Bob and Brendan,

How interesting and wonderful! From the Orthodox perspective, there is hope for the Croatians yet .

Did not the Croatians have a translation of the Latin Mass in a form of Slavonic?

I have also come across Serbian Western Rite Orthodox.

You just can't tell the good guys anymore .

Bob, congratulations on your aristocratic heritage!

As a monarchist myself, as Dr. John well knows , I salute you!

Alex