www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Evangelization or Proselytism?

"I noteqaute the two terms. Roman Catholics call it Evangeliztion, while Orthodox view it as Proselytism." But you do infer that they are different names for the same actions.

A number of years ago, maybe seven, our RC parish had an evangelization committee which I joined. We did a number of years of various projects, set up a parish web site, had a night (or two or three) for fallen away Catholics, sponsored some multicultural liturgies, exposed the regular nine-o'clock Mass types to a Syro-Malabar liturgy. We were joined by a woman who wanted to convert all non-Catholics --- an apologist in training, ready to take on all comers. We told her we weren't into sheep stealing. The more we talked about it, the more we concluded that the greatest need was for us to evangelize ourselves. After maybe attending two meetings, she never came back.

The committee died when the chairman became a deacon and went into hospital work. None of us wanted to take up the chores.

But, two of us got together with two Orthodox Sunday school teachers and started a discussion group that has averaged 9-12 members. We've been meeting monthly for five years now, learning and un-learning much -- To a person, I would say all would agree that each of us is a better Christian, a much more informed member of his own Church, and full of great respect for the other Church. None of us had any thought of "converting" the other, rather we each sought to convert ourselves to a fuller understanding of what it means to be a Christian and a member of Christ's body. We evangelized ourselves.

Meanwhile, half-way across the world, in Ethiopia, some zealous Catholic missionaries (Spiritans, aka Holy Ghost Fathers and Brothers) sought to convert animist Africans to Christianity. They found, instead a country that was almost 50 percent Christian, albeit Orthodox. After a little soul-searching, they decided to spend a goodly portion of their effort assisting the Orthodox in their already established work. Don't have the full story in a format that I can copy and post. But, here's the latest (2002) I could find from the reports of the Catholic Near East Welfare Association:

"Although there are few Catholics in Ethiopia, half the population is Christian, mostly Ethiopian Orthodox. CNEWA's pastoral goal is to ensure the survival of Christianity, not just Catholicism, in Ethiopia. Our support for the Orthodox Church this year included grants to fund the construction of seminaries in Debre Tabor and southern Wollo and to support the training of clergy in Mizan Teferi. We regularly send resource materials and books to the church's principal center of clergy formation, Holy Trinity Theological College in Addis Ababa."

Christ's peace to all.

Dear Friend,

I think the Ethiopian story is wonderful and I've always believed that Catholics should evangelize Orthodox countries by helping the existing Orthodox Churches in their work.

This is what the Anglicans have done historically with the Oriental Churches and this is why these Churches are on such good terms with the Anglicans.

Henry Martyn, a great Anglican scholar, dedicated himself to translating the Bible into the indigenous languages of the Eastern Churches. He did one in Armenian and was so respected by that Church that when he died there, they buried him in the vestments of an Armenian bishop!

John Mason Neale, another Anglican scholar, translated many Eastern texts into English and even wrote an attack on the use of pews in Anglicanism, based on Eastern theology!

His translation of the Akathist to the Passion of Christ is still used by the ROCOR in England.

Blessed Leonid Fyodorov, a Russian Catholic New Martyr, once mused about the great number of Russian Orthodox being martyred for Christ by the communists. They gave their lives willingly and readily for Christ.

"And these are the people the Poles want to convert to Christianity . . "

Blessed Leonid, Pray unto God for us!

Alex

I did not equate the two terms. To state again, what the Latins call evagnelation, the Orthodox view as proselytism.

I talked this point over with a Dominican priest I know, and he shared that evagnelization and prostyletism are two different things that often get blurred into one another. Where one blends into the other can be sublte or overt, but they do get confused.

I think it is great that you had a multi-confessional evagelization group and the work that is being done to promote the churches in Ethiopia, etc are also wonderful news.

The context of my quote deals with the issue in Russia. What do you think is happening there? I am a bit skeptical about Rome's policies, becuase I have been to that region in the world and they are out to bring people in their church.

I don't know what the proper solution is.

sinner,
Ality

One of the blessings of our meetings is the awakenings in understanding that occur, when we discover that we are not talking about the same thing when we use certain words. Even in the Catholic dialogue with the Lutherans, the Lutherans discovered that, because of vocabulary drift over time, they no longer had the same meaning for words that Luther had.

Better to talk about what is happening.

What is the Catholic Church doing in Russia? Christ said "feed my sheep." Well, the Pope has sheep in Russia, just as do the Orthodox, who have a presence not only there but also in Ireland, where they seek to feed their sheep, "new" as well as old.

What are Polish priests doing in Russia? Poland has a comparative surplus of priests and even U.S. dioceses are wining and dining Polish seminarians, hoping they will come to the U.S. to fill a shortage.

Why Polish priests in particular? Language. Nigeria also exports Catholic priests - have one of the best in our parish - though I think I could understand a Polish priest more readily. Without priests of their own, would Russian Catholics be better served by importing Polish priests or Nigerian priests?

Are the Polish priests trying to convert Russians to Christianity? Dare say they are probably busy enough just taking care of those who are already Catholic -- finding and/or maintaining a place of worship, while serving the liturgical and sacramental needs of a parish, which is work enough for priests in this country, let alone in Russia. Most of our pastors here do not have time to go out seeking converts, hence parish proselytism, erh, evangelism committees. :rolleyes:

Next question: Why would the Catholic Church seek to convert Orthodox to Catholicism with one hand, while supporting Orthodox evangelism/proselytism with the other?

Case in point --

RUSSIA - 12 July - 250 words
River launch for second floating church

Just over two years after the launch of the first chapel boat on the river Volga, a second 'floating church' is about to enter service for the Orthodox Church, this time on the river Don.

According to a report from the international Catholic charity Aid to the Church in Need, this second boat will be formally launched at a solemn dedication ceremony next Tuesday (18 July) in Volgograd. The ship will be 'baptised' in the name of St Nicholas by Metropolitan German, the Orthodox Bishop of Volgograd and Kamyshyn. Aid to the Church in Need will be represented at this ceremony by its president, Hans Peter Rothlin.

The new ship is some 100 feet long and 30 feet wide. It is intended to serve as a church and pastoral centre to the communities along the banks of the river Don and its tributaries during the ice-free months from April to October. Its most important area of operation will be the 200-mile stretch between Kalatch-na-Donu and Serafimovitch. The ship will carry a floating team of priests, who will take turns to supply the pastoral ministry.

The ship cost around 65,000 US dollars to convert - a cost that was borne entirely by Aid to the Church in Need. This type of collaboration with the Russian Orthodox Church has been one of the priorities of this Catholic charity ever since 1992. The ship will be based in Volgograd, a city linked via a canal to the river Don, which lies to its west.

In Christ's love.

Would your name be Ed?

-rayK

I was reminded today that when Providence is divorced from evangelize it becomes proselytize.

Evangelization in the Roman Catholic sense means to go out among people and live a life a faith. At the end of The catholic mass the priest says, �Go forth to love and serve the Lord�. This only makes sense in the context of a living Providence, a living God. Without Providence� it becomes an intellectual system, a moral system .. Just like any other. Without Providence it becomes winning people over to your way of thinking. This is not want God wishes us to do.

The Jewish church (the first covenant) had no formal means nor doctrine nor methods of proselytizing. No one was to go out and drum up converts. What good does it do to win someone over with well thought out arguments? Some one else is bound to come along who will eventually have more clever arguments and take the man you converted - away from you.

Here is evangelization� I know because I was there when it happened and heard it.

A friend of mine made several sales calls today for his company - on one of the calls he reached a woman who said she was interested in their product (they produce computer games) because she often has amnesia and is home bound and on morphine much of the time. Some of the games are very simply to play and it is organizing items into patterns� repetitious. This - she can do� so she had spent hours with the old version of the game. But - she said �I have no money anymore because I can no longer work.� So he let her know that he would have the games mailed out to her for free� compliments of his company. (He can do that). There was a silence on the phone� them with a trembling voice she said �You would really do that?� and he said �Sure I would� there are good people in the world they are just hard to find� (he was speaking about her but no doubt she was thinking it applied to him).

They then spoke for about a half hour � and I do not have the space her for the litany of her troubles. Breast cancer, raped three times in the past. Husband left her� things I could not imagine would happen all to the same person. He then let her know that he would be mailer her the book Abandonment to Divine Providence - because - she had explained that she prays to God every day and she has experienced that the angels sometimes help her - she keeps them real busy� and she said �there is no such thing as coincidence.�

THIS - is evangelization. God�s Providence presented this woman to my friend today � he �ran� across her by accident. He - listened - to her and he gave of what he had (what was proper and called for at the time) because he could� even if he paid for the games himself� his money is not his money but God�s money he is in charge of using� and God has more.. It was money well spent. She is a Mormon but since her ills her husband had an affair and ran off - she no longer goes. He let her know that he was a Roman Catholic - but he do not care what she is and has no interest in �converting� her because Providence comes to all people no matter their affiliation. Providence does not �belong� to the Roman Catholic church.

Her reply was �When I answered the phone and first heard your voice� I was comforted right away .. And I knew this was someone whom God was putting me together with�� He had answered that statement of faith with �For a little while� for a little while.�

Only when Providence (God governing of all daily events) is considered does the words �God forth to love and serve the Lord� make any sense. Without Providence - Christianity becomes a philosophical system, a therapy, an affiliation with a like minded group who preach a �system� and ideology.

[ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: -ray ]

What at all is wrong anyway with proselytism in any way shap or form directed against those who have fallen away from the true and apostolic faith? WE all know that there is only one true religion founded by Christ and sanctified by the Holy Ghost. To refust to proselytise is also to refuse the divine command to go and make disciples of all nations. THose who profess heretical teachings are not able to do this and therefore the True Church of the Apostles and Martyrs needs to. THis teaching was the way the Church saw things from day one untile about a few decades ago when the whole ecumenical, inter religious, smorgestborg descended upon us.
I, for one, take every chance I get to steel as many sheep from other peoples folds as possible since they are not sheep safely in paster, but those that have gone astray. Even if a person has no fault in that they were simply born into a particular faith, it still does not make what they believe to be right in any way. It saddens me that there are people out there who would rather let the abysmal ignorance of sinful heresy cloud the minds of men because they do not want to steel them away from there "folds".
For the Greater Glory of God. Robert K.

Dear Robert,

Does what you say about proselytism apply to the Orthodox?

Are Catholics justified in trying to "poach" Orthodox Christians from their Mother Churches?

Alex
Whose ancestors were so poached ...

To tell you the truth I would like to know more about the activities of the RCC in Russia. The Polish priests are there because there are very few native priests and because the catholic believers have Polish roots.
I'm sure that the real enemies of the Orthodox nations are the protestant sects and not the RCC, and the protestant invasion is the real challenge now in most of this countries, and the Catholic Church should try to respect the cannonical territory of the national churches and avoid some pastoral activities that could be agressive.
In Bulgaria, many priests of the Old Calendar Church are very interested in Byzantine Catholicism and this will cause some troubles (ironic: their anti-ecumnist and ultra conservativeness might bring them to Rome). Members of the Old Calendar Synod (opossed to the Patriarchal Church) said that Patriarch Maxim, and the Greek catholic Exarch, Hristo Proykov are working together in order to divide the Old Calendar church.

Surely you jest!

:rolleyes:

Talk about cognitive dissonance.

I think I will convert to Islam----it makes more sense than Christianity!




Where is Muhammed when you need him?

ER

Dear Remie,

Yes, there are many forces at play in the dynamic between Catholicism and Orthodoxy in Eastern Europe today.

For a number of Orthodox, the Pope represents the West and everything positive that their experiences under communism was not.

Some Orthodox like the Pope because, as we saw in interviews and other sources stemming from the Pope's visit to Ukraine, they see him as a fresh, spiritual alternative to some members of their own hierarchy, as they themselves said.

My in-laws were in Ukraine and Russia and visited Roman Catholic parishes there.

The fact is that Russians do go to those parishes.

My in-laws are very Catholic, but also very Byzantine-Ukrainian Catholic.

They were disturbed by what they saw was Latinization of the Russians.

They asked the RC Priest why he didn't become Byzantine. He said that it was because "that isn't my tradition."

But did not Vatican II on the Eastern Churches EXPLICITLY say that the Eastern Rite is to be adopted etc.?

We cannot maintain the position that the presence of RC Churches and now Dioceses in Russia will not lead to conversion of Russian Orthodox Christians.

And this is, of course, their right but it isn't their Rite.

I don't know the answer.

But reading the Moscow Patriarch's response to the creation of Latin Diocese in Russia and comparing this to Orthodoxy's western presence as that of "guest" in western jurisdictions, I couldn't help but wonder if the Orthodox Church has a much better sense of diplomacy, respect for other Churches and their territories and sensitivity in this whole area than we who pride ourselves on "democracy" and other values.

Alex

Regarding proseltyzing, St Paul speaks against it in Romans 15:20-21 -

[Note: Caps are mine. Also, if you read it you will be able to distinguish between evangelization & proseltyzing]

Romans 15:

20: And so I made it my aim to preach the gospel, NOT WHERE CHRIST WAS NAMED, LEST I SHOULD BUILD ON ANOTHER MAN'S FOUNDATION,

21: but as it is written:

"To whom He was not announced, they shall see;
And those who have not heard shall understand."

Dear Orthoman,

Right on!

However, do you feel that Orthodox should try and convert Roman Catholics to Orthodoxy?

Why or why not?

Alex

[However, do you feel that Orthodox should try and convert Roman Catholics to Orthodoxy?
Why or why not?]

I assume you are asking for my personal opinion which is NO.
Why? Because of Romans 15:20-21.
I also believe that if God wants a Roman Catholic to be and Orthodox Catholic he will lead him to the Orthodox Church. I am Godfather (Sponsor) to nine converts to Orthodoxy in my parish. Five are from a Roman Catholic back ground (Four Latin Rite, one a 92 year old former Ukrainian Catholic). All five showed up at our parish because they were disatisfied with their church for one reason or another so were searching. The Holy Spirit brought them to our parish, not any proseltyzer.
We have another Roman Catholic, that has been attending for about four months now that has approached Fr Dan to be received into Orthodoxy. According to him, he showed up because, he was tired of going to Mass and seeing the RCC crumbling around him (his words...not mine). Fr Dan tells me there be another RC who has contacted him and will be here tonight for the Canon of St Andrew of Crete. He told Fr Dan it was his RC priest that advised him to look into Orthodoxy. Why, I don't know. I haven't met the man.
Out of the four non-Roman Catholic, three are ex-Lutherans and one an ex Episcopalian. Two of the Lutherans (husband & wife) showed up during the bombing of the Serbs. They were upset at what our country was doing and decided they wanted to pray for the Serbs in their own Church. After one Liturgy they never left! The Episcopalian has been studying Orthodoxy for eight years before he converted. The other Lutheran married an Orthodox girl and decided to accept her religion.
My sister, who became Lutheran when she got married just informed me her minister who was a Lutheran theology professor as well as a minister just retired and converted to Orthodoxy! He is now in training for the Orthodox priesthood.
So you see, if God wants someone to become Orthodox he will lead them.
I believe Orthodoxy to be more than a religion but a way of life. As such, it is by example we can teach the non Orthodox.... not by actively proseltyzing.

OrthoMan