www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West On Rome and her 3 Major Errors

Dear Harmon3310,

I wasn't offended by your post. But it was not accurate, and I felt that attention needed to be drawn to that. You write:
I think that most folks here are very well acquainted with these reasons of history and theology. Some are "real". Some, however, are - as Zenovia puts it - "intentionally faulty". And some are likely unintentionally faulty. The real ones will be difficult to deal with. The reality-challenged ones will be impossible to deal with; they just need to be put aside.

ps Zenovia,
My question about Bishop Kallistos was a rhetorical one. I didn't mean to imply that I thought his discussion distorted; just the opposite.

Dear All,

From what I remember, I liked Bishop Ware's book, 'The Orthodox Church' because it was not polemically tilted, but objective and fair.

You will find that Bishop Ware is complimentary and objective about the positive aspects of, and the comparisons to, Western Christianity, even at his lectures, and that he is not at all triumphalistic or polemic. He and other former Church of England convert Bishops of this mind and heart are a glimpse of hope for reconciliation of some kind.

In Christ,
Alice

The three major errors of Rome:

a) the near-suppression of the Italo-Greeks,
b) the near-suppression of the Gallican Liturgy, and
c) the severe restriction and Romanization of the Ambrosian Liturgy.

The Crusades, of course, stand above everything else!

Incognitus

Dear Icognitus you said in referring to the errors of Rome:

"The Crusades, of course, stand above everything else!"

I think it's time we put the crusades in perspective. These Franks went with the intent of liberating the Holy Land from the Muslims. They took up the 'Cross', (as they would say). They were devout and highly sacrificial. So what went wrong...if anything, (other than the Byzantines doing their mischief and the Franks bashing their heads in).

Actually the Byzantines did say that the Franks perceived our Eastern 'diplomatic ways' as being deceitful, etc. Frankly it seems to me to be a culture clash.

In reality I believe that the lack of understanding the Franks had of the 'subleties' of the East made them highly intolerant of the Byzantines. It was this 'intolerance' that was perceived as 'arrogance' and perhaps 'triumphalist' by the East.

Zenovia

Yeeessss... and they sacrificed a lot of Jews in Europe on their way to Constantinople, and they sacrificed a lot of Orthodox Christians in Asia Minor (because, from what I recall, they wore robes that looked �Muslim� and thus the crusaders couldn�t tell them apart from Muslims . . .oops) , and they sacrificed a lot of civilians in Jerusalem, etc., just in the first crusade. I'm not knowledgeable about the second crusade and the third crusade, but I doubt if the conduct was much better; perhaps, though, I am wrong. The fourth crusade was simply pillaging. I agree that some crusaders did indeed have pious intentions. Nevertheless, I think they were mostly semi-barbarian armies of fanatics who were out for plunder and their own glory as well as God's glory; and I think the Byzantines were civilized people who were aghast at what turned up after they had asked the West for mercenaries to flesh out their professional armies.

--John

Certainly, the Crusaders have a negative past, especially with respect to the Eastern Church.

This did not prevent other groups in other periods of history from adopting the "crusader ideal" and symbolism.

The crusader cross was popular among all branches of Christendom and Switzerland's flag today is but one of many crusader flags.

The Templars contributed much to the development of Europe as we know it today. They not only fought the Muslims, but also traded with them and exchanged ideas and goods with them.

The banking system, arithmetic, the game of chess and the like, were all brought by the Templars into Europe from the people they fought.

Whether we like it or not, "crusader" is the title that Christians are given today by many.

We might as well get used to it.

Alex

Dear Harmon,

Don't ever look at the Byzantines as being much better. They are different cultures. The West is more open, aggressive and competitive. When one commits and evil act it is usually in violence. The Greeks, and no doubt Eastern Europe and the Middle East, an evil act is committed through deceit and treachery...and that includes the Jews and Muslims.

Zenovia

I cheerfully admit to being a Byzantine chauvinist. And, not a thousand years ago during the Crusades, but right now, I often find a remarkable unwillingness among Western Christians to acknowledge even the existence of Arab Christians and a persistence in using "inappropriate" language about the Arabs.

Nor is it just the Byzantines who might feel a tad negative about the Crusaders. The Crusaders were something of a disaster for the other Eastern Churches in the same part of the world. I suspect that Yuhannon could tell us a few things about that.

Incognitus

Dear Incognitus,

You are right about the historical context, to be sure.

But the history of the Crusades in the Byzantine East didn't prevent Orthodox Kozaks from adopting its ideals and symbols when they went out to fight the Turks and liberate Orthodox Christians from their slavery.

And it didn't prevent Greek Orthodox writers from singing those same Kozaks' praises and affirming that those among them who died liberating the Orthodox would go straight to heaven.

And today, your title among many individuals and groups that are hell-bent on destroying the West is "Crusader."

Again, you might as well just get used to it because there is no sign it is going to change any time soon.

Alex

Dear Icognitus,

I can't understand a mentality that will gripe over what happened a thousand years ago. What the Crusaders did was the same as what all tribes, nations or 'what not' did at one time in their existance. They were at an early stage in their civilization. Now other civilizations call it their 'heroic' age.

The crusaders were also equal opportunity savages. A Muslim doctor when trying to proscribe some medicine for a crusader with a headache was shocked when the soldier ended up with his head bashed in. It seems a headache meant that one had a demon inside and the soldier conveniently decided to remove it.

Zenovia

Zenovia,

The past is the past, true, but when all of the stolen goods are still prominently displayed in St Mark's in Venice that is not really "repentence." I say, RC's, give the Orthodox back the relics completely, and Orthodox, give back the Ukrainians any Churches stolen from the Ukrainian Catholics (and vice versa for the couple of Orthodox Churches stolen by some of the Ukrainian nationalists in 1990).

Everyone should just give back what they took and then maybe we can get somewhere.

Anastasios

Beloved Anastasios,

Would you honestly feel comfortable with the stolen religious treasures being sent back to Istanbul?

From one who knows the day to day tensions that the Ecumenical Patriarch encounters existing in a secular Muslim country that resents him and any remnant of Greeks or their religion, and from one who knows the obstinate resistance of the Turkish government to allow for the reopening of Halki Theological School, Haghia Sophia Cathedral as an operating church, etc., etc., etc....I would most definitely not!

Besides, the tiny complex of the Phanar is not exactly the Vatican, and to visit it is a very, very sad reality of what happened to the great Christian city of Constantine.

As a Christian, I rejoice that I was able to visit St. Mark's in Venice and other churches in Italy. I was glad that I was safe and felt at home religiously in a Christian country, and that those treasures of the rich historical religious patrimony of all Christians are there for all to see and venerate.

We should not forget that we live in times when those Christian monuments may follow in the footsteps of Haghia Sophia one day if the extremist and fundamentalist barbarian terrorists have their way. Their leaders outright stated in a documentary I saw recently that they want back the lands of the Caliphate and to take Rome.

So perhaps this is a good time that we all stop being so 'you against me' and 'mine against yours', and purify our collective historical memories, and get on with the business of actually saving Christianity by trusting, respecting and loving each other.

In Christ who died on the Cross for us all,
With filial love,
Alice
*************************************************
Maybe this Greek folk song about the fall of Constantinople might shed some light on my thoughts:

Cease the Cherubic Hymn, and let the sacred objects bow;

Priests, take the holy things away, extinguish all the candles:

For it is the Will of God that the city fall to the Turks.

But send a message to the Franks (the West), and let them send three ships:

The first to take the Cross,
the second to remove the Gospel,
The third, the finest, shall rescue for us our Holy Altar.
Lest it fall to those dogs, and they defile it and dishonour it.

The Holy Virgin was distressed, the very icons wept.

"Be calm, Beloved Lady, be calm and do not weep for them

Though years, though centuries shall pass, they shall be yours again."

*(At that holy time, God willing, I will agree with you that all should be returned from the West to the East )

Dear Alice and Zenovia,

I love your posts and they are very enlightening!

Cheers!

Alex,

I finally found where the icon I have came from. It is from the website of the German Carmelites. I ahve contacted them but the email I've sent have bounced. Maybe there is something wrong in their server.

Alice,

True, I would not want them going to Turkland but the EP has jurisdiction over Thessaloniki and he could deposit the treasures there.

I think if we all give up our stolen goods then we actually will be able to help alleviate the us vs. them mentality.

Yours in Christ,

Anastasios