www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West If Eastern Catholicism did not exist

Originally posted by carson daniel lauffer:
Apotheon,

If I were to argue that on a Protestant board they would say "Sure, its the invisible Church". Eli doesn't like me to ask this question but I think if we are serious about evnagelization we must have an answer, "How is what you said any different than the Protestant 'invisible church' notion?"

CDL

This relativizing concept of the Church stands at the basis of the radical criticisms directed at the hierarchic structure of the Catholic Church. In order to justify it, Leonardo Boff appeals to the constitution "Lumen Gentium" [no. 8] of the Second Vatican Council. From the council's famous statement, "Haec ecclesia (sc. unica Christi ecclesia) . . . subsistit in ecclesia Catholica" ["this church (that is, the sole Church of Christ)... subsists in the Catholic Church"], he derives a thesis which is exactly the contrary to the authentic meaning of the council text, for he affirms: "In fact it (i.e., the sole church of Christ) may also be present in other Christian churches" [p. 75]. But the council had chosen the word subsistit (subsists) exactly in order to make clear that one sole "subsistence" of the true Church exists, whereas outside her visible structure only elementa ecclesiae (elements of Church) exist; these "being elements of the same Church" end and conduct toward the Catholic Church ["Lumen Gentium," no. 8]. The decree on ecumenism expresses the same doctrine ["Unitatis Redintegratio," nos. 3-4], and it was restated precisely in the declaration "Mysterium Ecclesiae" [no. 1, AAS LXV (1973), pp. 396-398].

Originally posted by Dr. Eric:
Once again, we are at an impasse...

Looks like Satan is still winning and the Church is divided. As long as we fight over politics, [b]and this is political, Satan wins and we lose. [/b]

Originally posted by Dr. Eric:
We're still divided and he's still winning this round. I don't mean that he'll win in the end, but he is winning his fight to keep the Apostolic Churches out of communion with each other.

Originally posted by Dr. Eric:
Yet Satan will try his d@#$est to keep as many out of the Church as possible and also to corrupt those who are in it as much as possible.

All these Church politics sound like the 2000 election to me! :p -YUK!

Originally posted by Apotheoun:

The point that I am trying to make is that both Catholics and Orthodox must be more precise in the way that they speak about the goal of ecumenism, because both Churches claim to be the one Church of Christ, and so statements about "the restoration of unity" are not theologically accurate. A Catholic (and an Orthodox Christian for that matter) should speak about "the restoration to unity of those who are outside the visible structure of the Church."

The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity � rooted in the apostolic succession53 � between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church: �This is the single Church of Christ... which our Saviour, after his resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care (cf. Jn 21:17), commissioning him and the other Apostles to extend and rule her (cf. Mt 28:18ff.), erected for all ages as �the pillar and mainstay of the truth' (1 Tim 3:15). This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in [subsistit in] the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him�.54 With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that �outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth�,55 that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church.56 But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that �they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church�.57

17. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63

�The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection � divided, yet in some way one � of Churches and ecclesial communities ; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach�.64 In fact, �the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities�.65 �Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church�.66

The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but �in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history�.67

Originally posted by Apotheoun:

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Originally posted by Dr. Eric:
[b] Once again, we are at an impasse...

Looks like Satan is still winning and the Church is divided. As long as we fight over politics, [b]and this is political, Satan wins and we lose. [/b]

No, Satan has not won, because if you are a Catholic you must, as a matter of faith, hold that the one Church of Christ is indivisibly present within the Catholic Church; and ironic as it sounds, an Orthodox Christian must hold a similar doctrinal position in connection with the Orthodox Church.

Now clearly either the Catholic Church is right, or the Orthodox Church is right. [/b]

Originally posted by LatinCat:

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Originally posted by Apotheoun:
[b]

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Originally posted by Dr. Eric:
[b] Once again, we are at an impasse...

Looks like Satan is still winning and the Church is divided. As long as we fight over politics, [b]and this is political, Satan wins and we lose. [/b]

No, Satan has not won, because if you are a Catholic you must, as a matter of faith, hold that the one Church of Christ is indivisibly present within the Catholic Church; and ironic as it sounds, an Orthodox Christian must hold a similar doctrinal position in connection with the Orthodox Church.

Now clearly either the Catholic Church is right, or the Orthodox Church is right. [/b]

AMEN BROTHER! I hate relativism! [/b]