www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West If Eastern Catholicism did not exist

No, I do not agree, because from a Catholic perspective the one Church of Christ, as the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council indicated, subsists in the Catholic Church alone [See "Lumen Gentium," no. 8; and "Unitatis Redintegratio," nos. 3-4], and moreover, this unity ". . . is something that she can never lose" [See "Unitatis Redintegratio, no. 4]. Therefore, the one Church of Christ cannot be divided into parts as you imply in your post. Now that being said, the doctrine of Vatican II does not exclude the possibility that there could be so many elementa ecclesiae present within a specific community (e.g., the Orthodox Churches), that that group could be seen as a true particular Church, that is, that that worshipping Eucharistic community could, to the degree that grace was operative within it, manifest -- albeit imperfectly -- the one Church of Christ. Nevertheless, all of the elements of grace that are present within such a community properly belong to the Catholic Church, and they impel those who possess them to full Catholic communion in the one Body of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church and is governed by the successor of St. Peter. The elementa ecclesiae present within the Orthodox Churches means that they do, at least to a limited degree, manifest the life and grace of the one Church, but because they are in schism from the Apostolic See of Rome it follows that they are not the one subsistence of the Church of Christ, although they are of course very closely related to the Church through their possession of valid priestly orders. Now, what I am saying is confirmed by a portion of the quotation that you yourself supplied and highlighted in your own post, because as the CDF instruction Dominus Iesus declared: "The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection -- divided, yet in some way one -- of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach." [CDF Instruction "Dominus Iesus," no. 17; see also "Mysterium Ecclesiae," no. 1] In other words, the Church is not something that we are going to "create" through ecumenical dialogue; instead, the Church already exists, and this one subsistence of the Church is found in the Catholic Church alone. In the case of the Orthodox Churches, as various documents of the Magisterium have indicated, there is a great degree of unity already existing, but this unity is still wounded within those particular Churches; and in addition, the fullness of unity, which Christ willed for His Church, is found only in the Catholic Church.

No, because as I indicated above, the Church cannot be divided into parts. The Church is an indivisible reality, and so to say that the Church can be divided is the equivalent of saying that Christ Himself can be broken into pieces. The unity of the Church is a supernatural gift, which means that it is not a mere human construct brought about by man's own efforts.

Finally, as far as the Orthodox Churches are concerned, I doubt that they would accept the idea that the one Church of Christ is made present in the Catholic Church, and I say this concerning those Orthodox theologians who would perhaps be willing to admit that elements of grace (i.e., divine energy) are present in the Catholic Church.

God bless,
Todd

I'm just catching up with what has been posted. This is very distressing.

Andrew

There is a possibility in the bi-lateral dialogue between the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy that we find that the separation has not been a rupture of the Body but a sad and prolonged error of her members, and that would be all right too, if we can mend our ways.

From St. Ambrose (The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: Second Series Vol. X; Eerdmans pg. 334):

"The likeness of Your Church, O Lord, is that woman who went behind and touched the hem of Your garment, saying within herself: 'If I do but touch His garment I shall be whole' (Mt. 9:21). So the Church confesses her wounds, but desires to be healed."

I wish that I could share your optimism. But the fact of the matter is, that no matter how awesome many Eastern Orthodox Christians are, the Eastern Orthodox are in full schism. The Church defines schism as "the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the Church subject to him" (CCC 2089). You see the Eastern Orthodox clergy to refuse submission to the Pope, they are not in communion with him, nor are they in communion with the laity of the Catholic Church. By defintion, they are in schism and no longer part of the Church. Thus, even though your idea is pleasant (i sure like it), it is not true. But I think that one aspect of you idea is true. The great schism was not a rupture of the body. The Catholic Church maintains it's unity, and Catholicity even if some Christians are cut off from the Church. Thus, even after the Eastern Orthodox left the Church, the Catholic Church was still the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH. For, "There is ONE body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, ONE FAITH, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all an through all and in all" (Ephesians 4:5-6).

Latincat

(Less than charitable comments deleted by myself)

~Isaac - who is now repeating over and over the wisdom of Mar Isaac: "If you have no means of stopping up the mouth of the person who denigrates his fellow human being, at least be on your guard yourself, lest you become his partner."

What are you talking about? I was not being uncharitable to the Eastern Orthodox. I was simply pointing out that we are not the same body and that Catholic teaching precludes them from being considered part of the the same body as us until they come back into communion with the Church. How on earth is that uncharitable?????? Why is is that whenever anyone states Catholic teaching, that person is accused of uncharity?????? Wouldn't it be more uncharitable to say that they are part of the Church when they are not? Just as it is uncharitable for a doctor to tell a sick man that he is healthy?

Apotheoun and LatinCat are posting pretty convincing evidence that from a Catholic perspective, we as Orthodox are not part of the church, but are simply another grouping of schismatics.

Andrew

LatinCat �

I can think of few things less charitable than comparing our Orthodox brothers and sisters with JW�s, LDS, etc., etc. That you appear to intentionally give insult to the Orthodox ought to give you pause and lead you to ponder Mar Isaac when he says: �The day you open your mouth to denigrate somebody, consider yourself as dead to God and emptied of all your labors.�


~Isaac

The above is simply an incondite tirade. LatinCat, you have contributed nothing in reality to an informed discussion on this topic.

No, you simply don't want to face the truth. I am not sure as to why.

Give me a break. You can compare anything to anything if those two share something in common. I was compare non-Catholic Christians to other religions only in that they are NOT CATHOLIC. I am sure that you are an intelligent enough person to see that. I am sure that you can also see that I was not denigrating any person. I was simply pointing out that the Eastern Orthodox are not part of the Catholic Church. Any person who says they are is in error. So I am not sure why an intelligent person such as yourself keeps misapplying that quote to myself.

Dear LatinCat,

While I have no problem with you expressing your particular opinion about the Eastern Orthodox not being part of the Catholic Church, I do have a problem with you lump summing us with satanists and other cultist groups. I don't think that Pope John Paul II, of blessed memory, would agree with you. I never heard satanists or Jehovah Witnesses called the 'other lung' of the Church.

I have deleted that comment in your original post, but as others have included it in their quotes, I will leave their posts, and ask that you clarify your position or retract that most offensive statement.

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator

I have contributed nothing? Really? Rilian, an Eastern Orthodox Christian btw, disagree with you. as he states above, "Apotheoun and LatinCat are posting pretty convincing evidence that from a Catholic perspective, we as Orthodox are not part of the church, but are simply another grouping of schismatics."

This topic is getting out of hand and uncharitable. I have not received the courtesy of a response to my post to LatinCat so I will close down this topic.

Alice, Moderator