www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Parishes with eastern rite in Sweden?

I�m a catholic and looking for a liturgical renewal as I�m tired of the "Novo Ordo". Does anyone know where to find parishes with eastern rite in Sweden (or in Scandinavia)?
Sorry for my bad Enlish...
In Christ+ / Per-Johan

Dear Per-Johan,

Welcome! I agree with you about the limitations of the Novus Ordo. At least *in practice* it is not the legitimate renewal the Roman Catholic liturgical movement had in mind before Vatican II, when it tried to revive Gregorian chant, make the sung Mass (solemn Mass, Hogmessa) the norm it is supposed to be and encourage congregational responses. The Orthodox tradition (Byzantine Rite), however, does embody much of what this movement wanted and was an inspiration to it.

I don't know of any Byzantine Catholic churches in Sweden, but in Finland there is an ecumenical center with a Byzantine chapel:

Ekumeninen Keskus
Ecumenical Center and Chapel of SS. Peter and Paul
Myllyj
�rventie 9
02740 Espoo 74
Tel.: (358-9) 855-7148
http://www.stmichaelruscath.org/finland.htm

Its existence seems pretty extraordinary since as you know, Catholics of any kind are a minority throughout Norden (Scandinavia and Finland... and Estonia?).

Please visit my site as well. *Tack!*

Serge

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: Serge ]

Sorry, disregard this message - I added the info to my reply above. Thanks/tack.

[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: Serge ]

Serge,

It is so good to see you again after the unfortunate hiatus.

It seems that the discussion about the Novus Ordo is open again. I disagree with your interpretation of the origins and purposes of the liturgical renewal, of course.

But it is good to know that we will discuss again, my Brother in Faith!

Per Johan, I certainly concur with Serge's invitation to visit his site! It is well designed and full of useful information.


JOY!

[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: Inawe ]

Glory be to Jesus Christ!

I have spoken to so many wounded Latin Catholics it is unbelievable! I could count almost 50 of them. And there are so many more who are hurting over the changes in the Roman Rite after the implementation of the norms of the Consitution of the Sacred Liturgy of Vatican II. But again the Eastern Church is not the answer for those seeking "smells and bells" high Churchianity. We have a distinct patrimony and spiritual life connected with a rich and mystical Eastern Liturgical praxis and expression and the Church recommends Changing Ritual Churches, as in your case, for the genuine reason of discovering that Tradition, if you have that intention then welcome. But again there has to be a healing in your soul, you will not be allowed to change Ritual Churches if you view one Ritual Tradition as superior to another et al. You must settle your bets with your own Church, get your healing and explore other Traditions under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to see where He would have you serve in the Body of Christ. I wholeheartedly recommend that you speak to a priest or religious who can help you to heal. The ultimate end of Catholic fundamentalism is sedevacantism and I know schism is not where you need to go. You are attached to the Vine where the Life is you don;t need to go anywhere. Ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand Vatican II and to learn why the Roman Liturgy was revised in the context of evangelization. Formalism is also not the answer. Smells and bells high Church Churchianity means nothing without communion with the Holy Father and once Satan gets you to break Communion with the Catholic Church he has what he wanted. No one here will say that we agree with "altar girls" and the other abuses of National Catholic Churches of the Roman Rite after Vatican II or the abuses in our Byzantine Catholic Church, but try to look past abuses and see Christ, try to look past hand holding during the Our Father and see Our Lord in the people you are holding, ask the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, to help you see the good in the changes and that will be a great first step in your healing; if after you have healed you want to discover the other Catholic Churches in communion with Peter than visit them all and find out if you might be belong in the Coptic Catholic Church or the Maronite Catholic Church or our Church or the Russian Catholic Church. Again seek the Spirit's wisdom and pray, pray, pray!

In Christ,


Chief Sinner, Robert

Robert,

I agree with your post wholeheartedly.

The Eastern Catholic Churches in union with the Holy See are not a dumping ground for disaffected Roman Catholics who are tired of heterodoxy within some parts of the Roman Catholic Church.

If one comes to an Eastern Catholic Church, they must truly want to be a part of an Eastern Catholic Church, know and love the Divine Liturgy, know the customs of the Eastern Catholic Churches and know the traditions of the Eastern Catholic Churches. Coming into an Eastern Catholic Church with a chip on your shoulder does not a bit of good, either for you or for the priest, deacon and the members of the parish. For someone who does not know the traditions, customs and the Divine Liturgy and to tell the priest, deacon and the members of the parish how things are supposed to be done, as a neophyte, is extremely rude, to say the least.

Where is Per-Johan, the Swede who started this thread?

Sigh. The legend of the rude latinizing refugee appears again. Pre-crash, we've gone over this here ad infinitum, ad nauseam. Yes, yes, yes, respect the rite and theology of the Church you take refuge in... The former SSPX people I've known do! They're smarter than you give them credit for.

The Eastern Catholic Churches in union with the Holy See are not a dumping ground for disaffected Roman Catholics who are tired of heterodoxy within some parts of the Roman Catholic Church.

Which, along with the post before yours, implies that small-o orthodox Romans are dumpable, crazy, superficial, frivolous.

The disconnect between Catholic teaching and the Novus Ordo in practice reminds me of remarks one hears about self-hating Jews.

Our Churches (both Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox) are in part a refuge — that's not what Catholic officialdom wants to hear, but they are! But of course that's not all they are.

I hate the trivializing, put-down sound of the expression but our liturgics are "smells and bells (the big kind of bells, not the little handheld kind)' and "high church', more so than the Roman Rite! Figuring out why it is, while the West has gone liberal and low-church, can be an entry point into discovering just what Orthodoxy is.

http://oldworldrus.com

Smells and bells high Church Churchianity means nothing without communion with the Holy Father

I understand where you're coming from as a Catholic writing to Catholics, but please reconsider your words in regard to the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the rock from whence you as Byzantine Catholics were hewn (partly through now-discontinued solicitation). Catholicism doesn't teach that Orthodoxy means "nothing', despite the continuing estrangement dating from the Middle Ages.

I will broadly agree that outside the context of the Church (to put this point in both Catholic and Orthodox terms), the finery, the trappings, even claimed lineages of apostolic succession, don't mean anything, which is why for us both, liturgical Protestantism and vagante tomfoolery ("independent' bishops) are contradictory and dead ends.

That reminds me — the Byzantine Forum's old friend Don, a former vagante priest, was planning to be a Ukrainian Catholic layman by now. God grant him many years!

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: Serge ]

Thanks for remembering me Serge! Yes, just about there. I resigned from the active ministry October 1st and will probably be received into the Ukrainian Church the first weekend of December.

Don

Dear Don,

Serge means well, you know. . .

I hope you're not offended by the term "vagante."

Your move to the Ukrainian Church could thereby be said to be going from "vagante" to "extravagante" in a good sense, of course.

"Extravagant" in terms of how much incense and bowing to bishops is done in any given parish I mean.

Alex

Alex,

Thanks for your concern. No, I don't really care for some of the things Serge says about the "Old Catholic/Independent" Catholic Churches. Over the past 12 years or so I have studied this movement very closely. Yes, there are many people who do the things he has said, maybe even most of those involved in the movement are that way. But I also know many in the mainstream Orthodox and Catholic Churches who do the same. However I also know many very devoted Old Catholic clergy who are dedicating their lives to serving God's people in any way they can. Canonical or non-Canonical, I think the only thing that matters is if the Gospel is being preached (and lived) and if people are being brought closer to Christ. I know in my ministry I was able to reach people who would never have anything to do with a mainstream Church...and now that I have left will be unchurched again. That was the one thing that gave me second thoughts about resigning from the active ministry. I do not regret my years with the Old Roman Catholic Church English Rite and thank God for the chance to minister to His people. I have the highest regard for my former bishop and his dedication to the Church. He and our other clergy are doing the work of God according to the light they have received and I pray that God will continue to bless that work.

As for Serge and his opinion, I also understand where he is coming from. As I said above, I am fully aware of the scandalous behavior of many in the Old Catholic/Independent Catholic/Orthodox movements around the world. But who knows if one of these priests or bishops may touch one person's life and bring this person closer to God. We cannot judge them, but leave them to the mercy of God. I have no hard feelings for Serge and respect his thoughts on this issue.

God bless all of my friends here on the forum!

(formerly Father) Don

One more thing, I never was much of a "vagante", I've lived in the same building for almost 22 years and worked at the same job for just short of 23 years

Don

Don,

Great to hear from you and looking forward to your chrismation in December.

No, I don't really care for some of the things Serge says about the "Old Catholic/Independent" Catholic Churches.

I'm sorry. But thanks for understanding where I'm coming from. It wasn't my intention to "diss' the Karl Pr�ters of the world (to give an example of one independent bishop I've read is a fine person) — sincere born Protestants who really want to minister. But I think you understand as a soon-to-be new member of the Orthodox tradition as a Ukrainian Catholic that from the O. perspective, ecclesiologically the position of the independent groups doesn't make sense. Plus, having seen firsthand a kind of religious chicanery resembling the many Internet churches, I have a sense of protectiveness and don't want to see Catholics and Orthodox suckered into the bad stuff. (It seems to me that most of the movement is made up of former Catholics and former Episcopalians.) Hence the harshness in some of what I say.

Even though ecclesiologically they're in a contradictory position, two factors get my respect in cases of such groups: real congregations and generational members (people who were born and raised in the church being discussed). The Polish National Catholic Church, for example, has both, as well as the impressive credential of being the only Utrecht-communion Old Catholic Church in the US.

Serge

http://oldworldrus.com