www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Moscow's rhetoric versus a global christian message

Dearest brother Francisco,

I would imagine that Patriarch Batholomeaus was NOT the one who imparted the Holy Mysteries to the non-Orthodox at Ravenna. I am told that this is so and have no reason to doubt it. As far as I know, there has not been a response to the problem and the ensuing communication from the Holy Monastery of Grigoriou, Mount Athos (a moderate monastery!)

The issue remains open. Anger on the part of the Orthodox arises from the very fact that this communication of the non-Orthodox happens. As chief celebrant, Patriarch Bartholomeus takes the 'flack' - perhaps unfairly - but that is a natural consequence. The problem may well be one that the Patriarchate, rather than the Patriarch himself has to resolve.

In the past, Patriarch Demetrios actually advocated the comunion of the non-Orthodox, believeing that this realised unity. This caused very great scandal, alienatng many Traditionalists and widening the hiatus between the two polarised extremes of Orthodoxy. This is sad, since it hardened the stance taken by parties who are already negative and hostile for whatever reason. Many people will suspect that the present Patriarch is following his predecessor. This may be unfair, but if so it needs to be proven.

With love in Christ -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Moni Grigoriou? Oh yes, a lovely monastery. I was there some years ago. I remember quite well father Dimitrios (?), the monk who was serving at the hospital, a really great person. I had the opportunity of talking with Grigoriou monks about the patriarch as well. I tried to tell them that the patriach was not so bad. From time to time I attend the all-night vigils in the Chuch (Metochion)Grigoriou Monastery has got in Thessaloniki. By the way the monks of Gregoriou are the most clean monks in the Holy Mountain. May Saint Gregory the Founder, Saint Nicholas and Saint Anastasia bless all the members of this forum !

Dear Aklie,

Yes, if we integrate over the past millenium I think that we will find no shortage of diplomatic intrigues for which the Vatican needs to apologize. But I had intereprested the earlier posts as suggesting some equivalence about hte situation in Russia. Your comment about promoting rival rites is an interesting one. The MP, I think, has an analogous view of the post-Soviet situaion in Western Ukraine. As an Eastern Catholic I see the situation rather differently.

Remie,
I don't have a reference that details the interaction, if any, of the Vatican and Macedonian Orthodox (I've read a little about it fromt he net). The unia-card has been played previously in the quest for autocephaly, for example in Bulgaria. So any interaction might have been more earnestly directed at Belgrade than at Rome. But I agree with you that the reaction of the Vatican to any such overture would be enormously different now, than it had been in the not too distant past. I hope that we can all recognize this change.

And to all,
It seems that presently both Orthodox and Catholic view partial re-unions involving groups unfavorably, whether in Macedonia, Antioch, etc.
At the same time, it does not seem this wariness extends to individual inquirers - in Russia, or in the Pope's backyard.

Dear Jim, Zoe and DJS,

I don't argue with the principles of democracy and the universality of the Christian message you have expounded - heaven forbid!

I'm talking about the historic and contemporary situation of Russia today.

In approaching Russia, we cannot impose our own Western framework on a country that has suffered under totalitarianism for so long - and even before the Soviets.

DJS talked about the respective heritages of the BC's and UGC's - and I agree.

Russia has its own particular Christian culture - and we're talking spiritual culture here, rather than spirituality itself.

The difference between the West and nations like Russia is that religious and cultural commitments can be separated in the democratic western countries, but they cannot be in countries like Russia and other nations where the Orthodox Church has been the one institution where the sum total of everything that goes to make up one's Russian identity existed - and exists.

We want to preach the Gospel in Russia to the unchurched? That's great, let's help the Church in Russia do her job.

The West is, however, pelting Russia with missionaries. I know that the Latin Catholic priests there are always on the lookout for Russian converts to the Latin Church. And, sorry, but I think there is nothing more ridiculous than a Russian Roman Catholic.

And what about all this rhetoric about "sister churches" we spout off about?

Isn't the fullness of the Apostolic Church to be found in the Russian Orthodox Church? And, if so, why arent' we supporting the Russian Church and helping it extend its outreach?

Yes, the Latin Church in Russia has a right to serve its members. But until Latin Catholic pastors there say to enquiring Russians knocking on their doors "I'll take you to see your local Orthodox pastor," Russia will be suspicious.

And I disagree with Jim - church boundaries are very much alive today, especially with the Roman Catholic Church.

No, we need to review this in greater detail and see that Russia will always be Russia, Orthodoxy and all.

And we do more good for Russians in terms of being more open to the West by supporting their own spiritual culture in their homeland rather than being seen to be the new crusaders attacking their domain.

Rome is very much into "Rome's domain" as well.

Anglican Bishop Henry Hill (who lives not too far from me) wrote "The Light from the East."

In it, he shows how Anglicans have historically tended to support the local Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Catholic Churches of the East.

They would bring in schooling etc., but when it came time for religious services, they would march the children off to their local Oriental parish . . .

This is why they have such a good reputation among those peoples to this day.

Until we Catholics can do that, we will not progress one iota in ecumenical outreach to the East.

Anything less than this is simply the outdated "converting the East to the Pope" plain and simple.

Alex

"The difference between the West and nations like Russia is that religious and cultural commitments can be separated in the democratic western countries, but they cannot be in countries like Russia and other nations where the Orthodox Church has been the one institution where the sum total of everything that goes to make up one's Russian identity existed - and exists."

Dear Alex,

In the above ines you make a very important point!!!

As the great Slavophile thinker Ivan Kireyesky pointed out on the 19th century, the truly Orthodox understanding of both personality, identity and faith is one of total integration. We live a life in which every aspect should breath Christianity. Faith is not part of our life: it is our life. This is not simply the vision of the hesychast who has achieved the state of constant prayer, but it was the whole mentality of the the Russian in past centuries. Culture is simply part of faith, and faith is part of culture. This may set some peoples' alarm-bells ringing, but it should not.

If we have truly put on Christ then we remain with him. Faith is not a garment worn and then removed; Christianity is not a mask. The last point is important. In the modern world we tend to wear a series of masks as we juggle different roles, but in a truly integrated life this is nonsense. Just as our personality should be one, rather than a series of different personae, so our culture should be one and united with our faith. This lies at the heart of the traditional Russian Orthodox mentality.

Orthodox Christianity is indeed for many believers the sum total of their identity - including their Russian-ness - and of their very existence. It is not one aspect: it is the total!

This is very different to the way most people in the 'west' think and perceive themselves and their society.

With love in Christ -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

You have put it all so beautifully!

Happy Thanksgiving!

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

from US State Department report on Russian religionINTERNATIONAL RELIGIOUS FREEDOM REPORT 2002 Russia

Some food for thought on things more ridiculous than a Russian Roman Catholic.

Well we never meant that the EP never receives Spanish or Portuguese converts, they do receive them individually and I supose that all Orthodox jurisdictions receive people from all ethnic backgrouds, but the EP is careful when it's about a large number of people with many priests who want to have their own hierarchy in the Western countries (in front of the catholic hierarchy).

About Orthodox giving communion to catholics, some of the conservative Bishops of the Georgian Patriarchate (those who have tides with some Old Calendar groups in Greece) wrote several texts against Patriarch Ilia, and said he had given communion to two Catholic priests from Austria who were "visiting" the country. However, this practice doesn't seem to be very frequent (catholics have a lot of parishes everywhere).
The other case is more common (Orthodox receiving communion in Catholic parishes), there are very few churches and priests, there would be some individual dispensations for the faithful in certain cases.

Dear Father:

Thank you for your clarification about the Church of Metropolitan Dom Gabriel. Let me see if I understood, The Spanish and Portuguese bishops were part of the Synod of Milan (Metropolia of Western Europe and the Americas) which was in communion with the True Orthodox Church of Greece, but then the Spanish bishops who wanted a clear canonical status left and became part of the Orthodox Church of Poland.
So now the group of Milan is trying to get contacts with the monophisites of Antioch.
Don't you think that there's a problem of identity there? The Old Calendar Orthodox Churches have never been very willing to accept dialogues with the monophisites. I've seen that the Milan Synod, for example is a conservative jurisdiction (rejecting false ecumenism, and all those things) but they have "western rites" including some that "re-appeared" and were never officially approved by the Orthodox Church (and they're not in use anymore by the Roman Church, for example). What would the True Orthodox Church of Greece would say about these "rites"?

Dear Friends,

I am in overall agreement with Alex and Fr. Mark; but Alex I am puzzled as to what extent this "take you to your own Church door' policy could be taken before it becomes uncharitable. I too think the site of a Russian Roman Catholic looks ridiculous and likewise a Russian Protestant; and it is wrong for them to set up missions in Orthodox lands (I really wonder how much global Christian missionary work is devoted to converting other Christians rather than outreaching to non-Christians like Muslims, pagans, etc? From the looks it seems as if the majority of missionary work is devoted to "sheep stealing') But if someone is inquisitive and is insistent about joining how could any Church repeatedly turn them down? The only time I see that being ok is when the inquisitive Orthodox is married and has children with an Orthodox spouse then the Catholic Church should discourage them and advise them to think twice. Otherwise the have to let them join, and I say this as a 100% die hard Meatab wearing Orthodox.

But overall, yes as Alex and Fr. Mark said about Russia is true for Orthodox world wide; the faith is one with the culture and in many respects the basis of ones identity. It is a way of life and not just a part of life or a Sunday service.

But we should always be weary about the motives and hidden agendas of these politicians who claim that they are supporting the local Orthodox Church by putting injunctions on Catholic clergy. We can not, for any reason (no matter how favorable it is to us) support state level religious intolerance; it is just dangerous, especially in these times of ethnic cleansing and ethnic wars.

Another question to ask is why these governments are only putting sanction on the Catholics but they let these crazy Mormon cults, Hare Krishnas, Jehovah Witnesses and tongue flipping Pentecostals roam freely? Is this all about faith and identity or are there deeper political issues involved?

May God Bless you all

Dear djs,

What I was referring to is not in terms of millennia but is more recent. Starting from 1846 onward the Vatican set up two vicariates in Ethiopia. The north was under the Lazarists and the south was under the “Mission to the Galla” directed by the Capuchins. The Capuchins were the ones who started promoting the “Latinization” of the Oromo language (in contrast those Northern Ethiopians who converted to the Catholic faith adhered to the "Ge'ez rite' or like the Byzitines saw themselves as "Orthodox in Communion with Rome.') The Oromo now have rejected the Ethiopian alphabet and choose to rely on Latin letters to write their language. This trend was started by Missionaries (both Catholic and Protestant). In the North the Vatican was more conciliatory toward Ethiopian culture and traditions in the south however they functioned no different than insensitive Protestant evangelizers. The Latin status of the Oromo has infuriated Northern Ethiopian Catholics and they have had to hold a number of reconciliation conferences and the like. The biggest critics are not the Orthodox but the Catholics themselves.

God Bless

Dear Aklie,

Yes, and the sight of a Russian Roman Catholic is still ridiculous, despite djs's post .

The point is not that a Latin priest would refuse to accept a Russian who wants to join his church.

But, as with all converts, (and heaven knows we have more than our fair share of them here take it easy, guys!), it is important to, like maybe, ask the potential convert why he or she wants to join the RC's or other church outside the ROC?

Yes, there is more than one ROC - perhaps the Russians can look to the Ukies to solve that problem - NOT!

Young people want to try something new - that is not a good reason to become Latin Catholic.

I teach young people and I've spoken to some from Ukraine who say there are Hare Krishnas in the classes. Again, it's all an experiment with the odd and the extreme.

Ukrainians became Roman Catholics after 1946 since there were those who would not attend Orthodox liturgy etc.

There is now a Ukrainian Latin Church - would that there were not . . .

I have relatives, Aklie, who have joined Protestant groups and two who have become Roman Catholic because they think their socio-economic status will improve - again, not the best of reasons for joining a church. Perhaps it's just me and I'm being more difficult than usual .

Until Catholics start treating Orthodox as an apostolic sister Church(es) in the fullest meaning of the sense, ecumenism will be seen by the Orthodox as a veiled attempt at conversion to the Papacy.

If that's what Catholics are about, or how they really see ecumenism, then, when it comes to Russia, we're still back in the days of St Alexander Nevsky and the Teutonic Knights.

The Knights lost, by the way . . .

Alex

No you are not being difficult, your attitude is that shared by many Diaspora communities. It is easier for you to reject some western bad habits and trends because you live here and can see through it. Young people, especially living elsewhere, always want something new; something new from elsewhere.

You are correct by pointing out that people sometimes join a new Church because they think it will improve their socio-economic status and that should never be a reason. But it does not help that there have been some Protestant missions that have offered people "rewards' other than heavenly rewards for their conversion. Now that much I agree should be illegal, but nothing beyond this.

I recall my own conversations with Ethiopian protestants; when they start to irritate me with their converts zeal (there go the coverts again, and they don't know half of what their talking about either) I defend the Orthodox faith. Once someone remarked that they were surprised that someone who grew up in America would defend Orthodoxy; it was their reasoning that America means modernity and that if I was "modern' how could I still be an Orthodox. When I hear remarks like that it almost makes me feel like taking a big maqomiya and whacking every Protestant missionary that allows me to get close enough, but that would not be too Christian like now would it?

As far as your relatives go, please tell them the Ethiopian proverb that I quoted for Justin the other day, Beidj Yeyazut Work Kemedeab Yikoteral (you treat the gold[ring] on your own hand as if it were copper). I don't see how anyone can give up the heritage of Kiev for anything. If I was Ukrainian I would not give it up for a million dollars. In fact, I was thinking to go to Kiev, try to pass as a Ukie and claim it all for myself. What do you think, do you think they will notice me. Will I get caught?

I understand the basic mssage, I think. We love ortho-praxis and would hate to see Russia drift away from it. As others have stated, however, Orthodoxy and Russia are so interconnected that the probability of this drift is very small; so small that it seems to me that we could relax relax about it enough to avoid endorsing state interference in religious expression.

Alex, I think your appeal to sisterly behavior is off the mark. If a Latin Catholic in Canada went to a sister church - say your UGCC parish - would you turn them away?

70 plus years went by from the communist takeover to the return of limited democratic principles in Russia. Prior to the revolution, the concept of "symphony" (secular government and church totally integrated together) existed. Since that time it has not, and no longer does to this day. What the Russian Church would LIKE to do is to restore it. Under symphony, a government worker who failed to make their Paschal communion could end up fired from their job. Their parish priest had only to send a note to the authorities to make it happen. Of course, I doubt very much that this extreme example would pass muster today. BUT, how can symphony be restored in the light of all the sects etc. that do exist in Russia now? Can anyone answer?

It cannot and no attempt should be made.

Axios