www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Moscow's rhetoric versus a global christian message

No kiddin'

Dear Alex,

I must say that I agree (for first time?) completely with you. I do not know if to be a Russian Roman Catholic is something ridiculous or not but I can assure you that when I attend a Latin rite Divine Liturgy in Greece (the Latin Catholics in Greece do not say "mass" but "Divine Liturgy" , they use modern Greek like liturgical language and do celebrate Easter according to the Julian calendar) I feel quite ridiculous. Unfortunately most Orthodox people, specially young people, who aproach the Latin Church in Greece (some of them has got strong identity or psychological problems) do it for cultural (they prefer the Western style to the Byzantine one)or psychological reasons (they find refuge among a religious minority where they fell at home)non for theological and dogmatical reasons.

I desagree both with the ideas of Patriarch Alexis II (only Orthodox Russians are proper Russians)and the attitude of the Roman Catholic missionaries (Russia is a mission country that must become a Roman Catholic country).

Dear Alex, I know that you know a lot of things about Russia, can you tell us, please, how many Roman Catholic bishops are now in Russia and how many bishops are serving the Russian Orthodox communities in communion with Rome all around the world (as far as I know they have no bishop)? According to the Code of Canon Law of the Estern Catholic Churches members of Eastern non Catholic Churches joining the Catholic Church must become Eastern Catholics not Roman Catholics. Do you know, Alex, if the Catholic converts in Russia are joining the Russian Catholic Parishes (Moscow, St. Petersburg) or the Latin ones (Saint Louis in Moscow f. e.)? Unfortunately form time to time I think that Rome is no more interested in Russian Byzantine Catholics. From the point of view of Rome (or the Vatican Curia if you prefer)a Russian Roman Catholic is much better than a Russian Orthodox in communion with Rome. That is a pity, is not it? Thank you very much, Alex.
In Christ,
Francisco

Francisco,

The Catholic Church has stated over and over and over again, that it does not wish to proselytize Russian Orthodox. It simply wants to provide the spiritual needs for Catholics in Russia and those who WILLINGLY come to the Church. If the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian government severely persecute the Catholic Church in Russia (and especially Eastern Catholics) then how can you expect that it would not be easier to be Roman Catholic, or even Russian Orthodox for that matter. It's the corrupt Russian government that makes this easier, not the Catholic Church.

ChristTeen287

Dear Christ (may i call you Christ?),

I am not accusing the catholic Church in Russia of making proselytism among the Russian Orthodox. I am just making a question: what about those Orthodox Christians " who WILLINGLY come to the Catholic Church"? Are they joining the Byzantine Catholic parishes or the Latin ones? If they are joining the Latin ones (that is something I do not know), them someone (the Russian "converts" or the Latin hirarchy in Russia)is not preserving the Code of Canon Law of the Eastern Catholic Churches. Why are those Orthodox Christians " WILLINGLY coming to the Catholic Church"? What to do with them? Should we acept them in the Catholic Church or shoul we tell them to try to find their place in the Orthodox Church? Taking into account that salvation is possible in the Orthodox Church, why to become Catholic? Sould they join the Latin parishes or the Byzantine ones? Dear Christ, I am a Catholic, for me it is too easy to blame the "corrupt Russian government" or the Patriarchate of Russia, but to speak completely frankly, I think that it is not the fault of the Rusian Goverment or of the Russian Patriarchate that the Catholic Church prefers to "invest" in the Russian Latin Church rather than in the Byzantine one. That is not the fault of the Rusian Goverment or of the Russian Patriarchate that new Latin dioceses have been created in Russia and that is not the fault of the Rusian Goverment or of the Russian Patriarchate that the Orthodox Russian in communion with Rome, as far as I know, have no bishop for themselves. I am sure that the Rusian Goverment and the Russian Patriarchate would not like to have a Byzantine Russian Catholic bishop in Russia, but in fact it would not be more difficult that apointing a Polish or a foreing Roman Catholic bishop for some of these new dioceses in Russia. The point is that the Catholic Church have shown a lot of interest in restoring the Latin Church (I repeat that I am not accusing the Catholic Church in Russia of making proselytism ) in Russia and very small interest in doing the same with the Byzantine Russian Catholic Church.
Yours in Christ,
Francisco

Francisco,

I apologize if I misunderstood you.

What evidence suggests that the Catholic Church is investing more in the Latin Church in Russia than in the Byzantine Church. I believe that the fanatical Russian Orthodox have more of a dislike toward the Russian Catholic Church because it hits to close to home, if you know what I mean. The traditions of the Russian Catholic Church are the same as the traditions of the Russian Orthodox Church, which just happens to be the tradition of the people. Generally speaking, I think people are drawn toward familiar traditions (i.e. Russian Catholic) more than foregin ones (i.e. Latin Catholic). If Russian Orthodox converted to Catholicism, I think they would much prefer Russian Eastern Catholicism to Latin Catholicism (aside from the fact that all Orthodox are received into the Eastern, not Western, Catholic Churches anyway). Maybe I'm naive, but I can't help thinking that the Russian Orthodox Church and/or the government have some sort of role in all this.

Personally, I think that all Orthodox who desire to enter Christ's Holy Catholic Church should never be turned away. Buddhists can attain salvation, but that doesn't mean they should be turned away from the Faith if they so desire to enter it. Without attempting to offend any Orthodox or Orthodox sympathizers here, I am not sure I am clear on the reasons why the Catholic Church doesn't try to convert Orthodox. I know the basic line is, "Well if we start trying to convert each other, ecumenical relations will go down the tube, and we have less of a chance of reconiling with each other." Perhaps this does make sense, but I have a little twinge of doubt.

ChristTeen287

As Francisco said, the Russians might join the Latin parishes because they prefer that western style of worship which according to them is less redundant, more participatory and allows more liturgical freedom.

From the conversations I've had with some Argentinian (catholic) missionaries who go to Russia, people convert not because they have troubles with the Orthodox doctrine, but because they like the style of worship, and the charismatic figure of John Paul II (who is really loved by many Russians). The missionaries come from the charismatic movement and they are very liberal catholics. They know very few about the Orthodox Church, they don't see it as a Sister Church (like most catholics)and think that it is a "boring" Church.

About the byzantine parishes, the trouble is that the Russian Catholic Church does not have an established hierarchy and that the Roman hierarchs there discourage the formation of Eastern Rite communities because of "Ecumenical" reasons (however, they have established Latin dioceses, I'll never be able to understand this).

Dear Francisco:
I'd like to know moe about the worship of the Latin Church in Greece, do they have byzantinizations? do they mix with the Orthodox community? do they use a worship style according to "the Spirit of Vatican II", or are closer to the Orthodox, or the Old mass in the worship?

Remie,

Jehovah's Witnesses and other neo-Protestant sects in Ethiopia also say the same thing about the Orthodox being "boring.' However, the Church of Christ is there to administer the Sacraments and keep continuity with Christian Tradition as recognized by each individual culture; it is not the mandate of the Orthodox Church to amuse people or make them laugh like at a circus. Russians have a cultural organic link with their own Orthodox tradition; this is irreplaceable. Efforts to subvert it by missionaries will always be looked at as Papal-imperialism or the cultural imperialism of the Protestant west. Why not just utilize resources by helping Russians strengthen their own Church?

BTW, I love Argentina; especially since it gave us Che Guevara. However there are plenty of places of non-Christian worship in Argentina and surrounding countries. Why do those missionaries have to go all the way to Russia to spread the word of Christ? This again demonstrates that ALL Christians have a problem. We are more concerned with sheep stealing than with spreading the Gospel to non-Christian areas. Shame on us!!

God Bless

A. Semaet

Can anyone give any numbers on Orthodox conversion to Latin Catholicism? Does anyone have numbers on the number of unchurched Russian who are entering Latin churches? Does anyone know how many of the Latin Catholics in Russia are entnic Poles, Lithuanians, etc. who are simply trying - against inordinate hostility - to worship in their own, legitimate way?

Why is there so little support for this latter group - especially here, among people whom I imagine to be sensitive to the rights of a minority group that wishes to maintain its own religious patrimony?

One day Christians will exterminate one another--in the name of Christ ( of course!)--while the non-Christian world observes in utter amazement and thanks their gods that they are not Christians and their respective faiths are healthy and intact.

(Sorry to be so blunt.)

Abdur

Dear Aklie:

I've seen that the popular idea of worship, as practiced and viewed by the modern society of the Western World, is defined in a very antropocentrist way.
This was very obvious in the early Protestantism, Protestantism is rationalist by nature, they supressed those things that shown the majesty of God, our human condition and the human tendence to sin (the majesty of the images in the Churches, the reverence in the Eucharist, and everything that looked supernatural). In the neo-Protestant groups, God has become a human creation, which is adapted to the purposes of the community.

In the modern western world, specially after the 60's, like in the early Protestantism, there's a loss of sense of the sacred. The worship must adapt itself to the modern man. The modern man's environment is characterized by an increasing spiritual emptiness. In this case, his space of worship reflects this emptiness. It is a "secular worship."
The main purpose of the liturgy has been falsified. in extreme cases (a minority of course) it is seen as a social reunion that must be atractive for people, surrounded by an environment of entertainment (clapping, dancing, pop music), an atmosphere which is fully controled by men.
The current despise of the traditional sacred art in the West, and the way it has been replaced by pieces of "modern art", the destruction of the ancient things, are an example of this antropocentrist possition.

Djs:

The "expansion" of Roman Catholicism in Russia, is sometimes exagerated by the ROC, most of the members of the Latin Church are Poles, Lithuanians and Germans (it is probable that now, they define themselves as Russian, but their origin was not Orthodox). The converts are sometimes atheist people or un-churched people.

traveler:

Christians have done horrible things against our brothers, We can't deny this.

But what about the other "religions"?

But do you think that the crazy guys who crashed the planes in New York will receive a blessing from "their God" only because they said "allahu akbar" before?
And what about those unhappy people who bombed a discotheque in Indonesia killing hundreds and hundersds of people?

Millions and millions of people are living in a LIE but they don't know it.

On the other side, as Christ said: a sin against him or the Father in heaven will be forgiven, but a sin against the Spirit will not be forgiven (a sin against the Spirit is a sin against the truth).
You have seen the true light, don't reject that light again

Dear Remie,

I read with interest your comments on anthropocentrist orientation of Western Culture. You make many interesting points.

Some questions arise as I read, though.

In the quote above, are you including in your description the current Liturgy of the Latin Church?

If you do include it, specifically when you say that the "main purpose of the liturgy has been falsified....", what do you mean? How has the purpose been falsified? Do the teachings of the Church support your opinion? Could you refer me to such teachings.

What do you mean when you say that there is an atmosphere which is fully controlled by men?

Thanks,

Steve

Remie,

Christendom's interminable infighting dearly costs her millions of potential converts, decade by decade. And what of the millions of former Christians who now look elsewhere for spiritual solace, because of Christendom's endemic infighting?

And what of sheep stealing? And from the same flock? Pure lunacy!

"Father forgive them for they know not what they do." Or maybe--perversely?--they do.

Abdur

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aklie Semaet:

"BTW, I love Argentina; especially since it gave us Che Guevara."

Oh yes, that great friend of humankind who helped to establish that wonderful Socialist system in Cuba, under which Christians are persecuted...

Christian

Dear Christian,

But it wasn't Che Guevara who persecuted the Christians - only those who came after him!

How are things in Orthodox Sweden?

Alex

Dear Francisco,

Well, I don't know the answers to your questions!

I would argue, with Fr. Mark, that Russian identity is bound up closely with Russian Orthodoxy, so much so, that to attack the Russian Orthodox Church or to try and make converts from it, would be seen, even by secular Russians, as an attack on Russia itself.

In that sense, the expulsion of Catholic priests COULD be seen as understandable.

Alex