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I've heard from some Latin friends, and even read on the Western Rite Orthodox webpage, that the (Traditional) Roman Rite is the oldest rite of the Church still in use today.

Father Adrian Fortescue, an expert liturgist, said:

Additionally, he said: So, apparently it is "a given" that the Roman Rite is older than any of the Eastern liturgies still in use.

Now before anyone denounces this as "Latin triumphalism," I'd like to know exactly when did the Eastern liturgies used today (St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil, etc.) develop?

Thanks.

Logos Teen

Latin Trumphalist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


just HAD to say it

LOL!

Coming from so friendly and fair-handed an Orthodox as you, Brian, I just can't buy it!

Logos Teen

Shlomo,
The above is very funny since the Roman Rite developed out of the Syriac and Greek ones. Up until the 400's the Liturgy in Rome was done in Greek.

Here is what Fr. Sawyer (a Maronite Priest) has to say.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

The Liturgy

The Maronite Liturgy is one of the oldest in the Catholic Church. St. Peter and other Apostles brought the liturgy of the Last Supper to Antioch where it developed in Greek and Syriac concurrently. The early Antioch liturgy is the basis of the Maronite Liturgy.

The first thing you will notice is the layout of the church itself.

There is a platform extending from the altar, call a bema.

The early churches were former synagogues, and the bema was the raised platform on which the elders stood and read scripture. You will also notice the richness of the priestly vestments. The design of the Maronite vestments is indigenous to the Holy Land.

The priest and deacon sit at the end of the bema facing the altar rather than presiding over the congregation. The semicircular seating arrangement dates back to the two(2) monastic choirs of the early church. It encourgages the congregation to be participants in the liturgy, rather than spectators.

The liturgy is throughout a dialogue between the people and the priest. The priest serves as the prayer leader in much the same way as Moses served the Israelites. The congregation stands or sits during the liturgy, as the liturgy is chanted back and forth between the priest and the congregation. In Eastern Catholic Churches, kneeling is done on Pentecost, in private prayer and can be done during Confession (Reconciliation).

The Maronite liturgy begins with calling on God's mercy, whereas the Latin Rite liturgy begins with "let us call to mind our sins."

We also acknowledge our sinfulness, however greater stress is laid on God's mercy. As one prayer says,

Yours mercy, O Lord, is greater than the weight of the mountains...

The Trisagion (Qadeeshat Aloho) is the first prayer that is sign in Aramaic, and it is sung three times in honor of the Holy Trinity. It is normally sung facing East.

The sign of peace is also different form the Latin Rite. The priest kisses the altar, places his hands on the chalice, then passes God's peace to the deacon, who then gives it to the acolyte, who passes it to the first person in the pews, who passes it to the next person, and so on. Very rich indeed!

The Consecration is sung in Aramaic, the everyday language of our Lord. the Blessed Mother, and the Apostles. It is the closest we come to the Lord's actual words at the Last Supper.

Throughout the liturgy, the priest will bless the congregation using the handcross, the Gospel, and the Eucharist itself, both before and after the Communion. Holy Communion is given only by intinction.

There is no Communion in the hand and there are no Eucharistic ministers.

(Only the bishop, the priest, the deacon or the subdeacon offer communion).

It is done with the words, "The servant of God ... receives the Body and Blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins and eternal life."

The Maronite Rite has over eighty(80) Euchristic Prayers, called Anaphorae. Most were composed by different saints, including St. James (the oldest prayer), the Apostles, St. Peter, St. Sixtus and St. Basil.

The prayers throughout the liturgy are full of Biblical imagery. The story of salvation is told over and over again; and, each liturgy is a short course in theology, using spiritual poetry to give praise, honor and tanksgiving for God's mercy and forgiveness, and for His constant love for us no matter what!

A Roman Catholic may attend any Eastern Catholic Liturgy and fulfill his or her obligations at any Eastern Catholic Parish. A Roman Catholic may join any Eastern Catholic Parish and receive any sacrament from an Eastern Catholic priest, since all belong to the Catholic Church as a whole.

The Holy Father encourages Roman Catholics to visit the Eastern Catholic churches, although Eastern Catholics are discourged from going to Roman parishes, as it is the will of Rome that Eastern Catholic retain their rich heritage and support their own parishes.

Vatican II even went so far as to say that if any Eastern Catholics have fallen away from the Eastern Churches out of time or neglect, they should take positive pains to return to their heritage.

Eastern Catholics who attend a Roman parish because there is no Eastern parish for them to attend still remain Eastern Catholics of their own particular rite.

Fr. Dr. Donald J. Sawyer, D.Min.

Yuhannon,

Doesn't the Maronite Church use a kind of "Novus Ordo-ized" Qurbono now?

By the way, I'd really like to visit the Maronite parish, which is about 1.25 ours away. How long is the average Sunday Qurbono?

Logos Teen

I was always under the impression that the oldest Liturgy still practiced in modern times is the Liturgy of Addai and Mari in the Assyrian Church of the East.

Dave

Uh, don't they all trace their roots to the Last Supper?

Daniel,

At least the second half of the liturgy. The first half traces its roots back to the synagogue service.

Joe

Here is a interesting article:

http://romanliturgy.net/gamber.html

The Maronite Liturgy is indeed beautiful and spiritual.

I have little interest in the New Order Roman Rite.


james

I have some difficulty with Dr. Fortescue's analysis considering one of the purposes of the Council of Trent and the intention of Quo Primum was to codify and reduce innovation in the Roman Rite.

If the Roman Rite was so archaic and already completely consistent why would St. Pius V have need for the language of Quo Primum, as 1570 is pretty late in the game?

And even Quo Primum didn't hold in the Roman Rite, as the second confiteor, second absolution, Leonine prayers, etc. were appended well after Quo Primum.

I believe Chtec is correct here, but I suppose it depends on what criteria we're going to use to judge these things.

Is the criteria here supposed to be when the earliest form of the liturgy was evident or the earliest point when it stopped developing?

I think a strong argument can be made that the liturgical practices of the apostles were somewhat eclectic. I think they probably ad libbed a bit. Formal instruction on how to do a liturgy would have been initiated right away as the Apostles were planting missions, and these new elders would not have been comfortable (or smart) improvising, so set forms were established that varied from village to town.

Most writers would probably say that the liturgy of Antioch was earliest, but which version? My bet would be the most primitive form of the Antiochion line (traceable somehow to Antioch) still in use would be the Addai and Mari liturgy, it doesn't even have words of institution and apparently never did. Of course, I am not an expert, that's just my opinion.

Michael

Hi James!

I actually like the Missa Normativa very much, and I always have.

I found my way back to God through that liturgy, it's funny how it works for some people and not others.

I have been to SSPX liturgies and indult masses around Chicago and I still prefer the Novus Ordo. We have a parish here called St John Cantius that has both, and both well done. People rave about it.

But I still love the the way it's done in my neighborhood, I guess I'm lucky.

PAX
Michael

Hi Daniel n!

You've got a whole lot of Holy, Holy, Holy there!

Michael

Adrian Fortescue, God rest his soul, was an interesting character and his books on the Eastern Churches are still worth reading - but he was also a firm Latin chauvinist (not unusual for someone from England, oddly enough) who, for example, thought that the only value of Byzantine chant is that it makes people appreciate Gregorian chant all the more! And yes, in the search for which Liturgy currently in use is the oldest, the Assyrian-Chaldean Liturgy seems to be the winner.
Fortescue, by the way, produced what seems to be the first Catholic translation of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom into English. It's not bad (Fortescue's Greek was excellent). Incognitus
P. S. "Missa Normativa" - haven't heard that expression in years!

Dear Michael,

Great pic for your avatar.

What do our Eastern brothers & sisters think of it?

Paul