www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Oldest Liturgy

I'm not Eastern but it strikes me as a great example of East meeting West

Brother Michael,

Nice avatar, some will label it with the "H" word though, now you have me checking "Missa Normativa" , does'nt ring a bell........yet.

Yes, I miss the Old Mass Rite, guess it was too easy just to change the Latin to English.

james

Dear Michael, Thanks. The Administrator objects to the size. I told him fine, can you make it a little bigger? He also questioned whether I had permission to use it and was afraid of violating copyright. I found it on Google Images and assumed it was okay to use. You have access to a vast array of images; how do you know one is okay to use?
Anyway that is off the subject. Does anyone else find all these arguments a bit disheartening? You know: who has the oldest liturgy, who honors Mary the most, who has the worst record of sins and abuses, etc.
It sometimes seems that many on this forum are seeking to continue rather than heal the division between our communions.

I read this thread a couple of hours ago and thought to myself, "Who cares which liturgy is the oldest? They are all legitimate ways to worship God." Thanks for your post!

Some people prefer to worship in Latin, others prefer the vernacular in the Novus Ordo (which I am probably spelling wrong), still others like the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (I am in this group)... As a spiritual director once told me, "We all have different spiritualities." God is self-sufficient and doesn't need our worship. The Church has so many forms of worship in order to help us worship Him to the best of our individual abilities.

Shlomo TOTIL :p ,
Our liturgies can go from 1 to 1.5 hours on average. It matters if the priest does the whole service, or cuts some corners.

And no we do not use a "Novus Ordo" like service. Actually our Patriarchal Synod (the first in 300 years) just put the finishing touches on the proper translations of the Qorbono.

Take care Logos Teen .

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Since I wrote in yesterday to say that the current crop of experts consider the Assyrian/Chaldean Liturgy the oldest one still in use, AND since I've never even attended it, perhaps I may at least claim to have provided the information without seeking to promote any particular cause beyond the dissemination of factual information. The historical study of Liturgy is worth-while in itself; there's no need to apologize for engaging in it. Incognitus

Diak,

The confiteor before communion isn't considered part of the Mass, I believe, and neither are the Leonine Prayers. The purpose of the Tridentine Reform was to remove medieval accretions etc. without going overboard. Pius V had the Protestant Reformation in mind when he codified the liturgy.

From what I've heard about Fr. Fortescue, it seems he was a genius, in more ways than one. Liturgically, he seems to be the real "creme de la creme." I don't think it's quite so easy to discount his comments.

He was known for knowing loads of information about the Eastern liturgies, and appreciated all of them. The very fact that he was English (and not French or Italian) should mean something about his supposed "chauvinism."

Yuhannon,

This is great to know - - - more power to the Maronites! I'll have to attend sometime.

Tammy,

I apologize if you find this discussion disheartening. I'm not intending to divide. It's not a competition as to what liturgy is the oldest, simply a discussion on the historical developments of liturgy.

Logos Teen

Actually I thought the oldest liturgy was at Rome and not the Roman Canon which developed much later but the Novus Ordo Eucharistic Prayer II which is an almost word for word translation of the Liturgy celebrated by Hippolytus a Bsp of Rome in the early part of the the 3rd Century around the year 200 AD.
Stephanos I

Dear Daniel,

Does size really matter?

Alex

Dear Stephanos,

The point is, however, which direction was St Hippolytus facing when he prayed that liturgy?

Alex

LT, if the second confiteor is within the Mass, right before Communion, how can it not be a part of the Mass? Just a private devotion thrown into one of the most solemn part of the Mass? That does not make any sense. It is a case in point, as this occurred after the Council of Trent as a liturgical "accretion" which Trent sought to stop.

And while you may have a point with the Leonine Prayers, these were definitely "appended" to the Low Mass, as the priest said had to say them, and say them prior to leaving with the Chalice, which was the liturgical "signal" for the ending of Low Mass. Doesn't sound like an optional private devotion to me.

If you will re-read my post, having "some difficulty" is certainly not completely discounting his comments. I greatly respect Dr. Fortescue's research, who one has to take into account inherent biases when reading as with anyone doing historical liturgical research.

And as I said previously, in spite of the very strong language of Quo Primum, changes did continue to occur to the Tridentine Rite. The revision of the Tridentine Rite in 1962 actually is more in line historically with the Mass of Pius the V than the existing in the time of Leo XIII and St. Pius the X.

Stephanos, that is an excellent point about St. Hippolytus. Also it is my understanding that the protoanaphora of St. James in the Syrian tradition is also very ancient, as is the Anaphora of Mari and Addai previously mentioned.

Since the Apostles all went their separate ways, all continuing that which they experienced in the Upper Room, none can really claim to be the "oldest" as these were the words and actions of Our Lord Himself (although spoken in Aramaic, Yuhannon ). I'm with Tammy on that one, i.e. the various cultural expressions the apostolic traditions took on really are a wonderful manifestation of the "catholicity" of the Church.

I think Fr. Stephanos is right--I've been told that the Roman Canon has the same roots and the Coptic Anaphora, the only major difference being the order of the institution narrative and the epiclesis. If this is true, then the 'Tridentine' liturgy can't be older than the Coptic liturgy.

Justin

The actual canon of St. Hippolytus does not even resemble the Eucharistic Prayer II. Look at them side by side. Not even close. If we weren't constantly being told that #II is based on the canon of St. Hippolytus, I never would have guessed.

LT

BTW how do we know that the Coptic anaphora isn't actually newer?

What about the tradition that Christ gave the Liturgy to the Apostles before ascending into Heaven? If that were the case, then the similiarities between the Coptic and Roman anaphoras could be explained by their common ancestor, rather than one being derived from the other.

LT

The Leonine Prayers are certainly not part of the Roman Mass. The normative form of celebration is the Solemn High Mass (or even the Pontifical High Mass); the Leonine Prayers were used only for Low Mass. Q. E. D. Incognitus