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Dear Friends,

Isn't the Clementine Liturgy the one that was once used universally in the Church?

Alex

Dear LT,

So when the Apostles went to the Temple for readings and then gathered at someone's home for the Liturgy of the Word . . .

Which part of that liturgical rite was ordained by Heaven?

No wonder you are so good at Hebrew!

Alex

incognitus, if the Leonine prayers were required to be recited at every Low Mass, are they not then part of the Mass by accretion? Interesting question. My consideration of this from a Byzantine perspective would be that the reciting of prayers required to be said "liturgically" by the priest before the altar prior to the departure of the priest from the altar to unvest, would be a liturgical action not easily separable from the preceding liturgical actions.

In theory I agree with your statement about the High Mass being normative. But even though the "normative" form of celebration was intended to be the High Mass by the Motu Proprio of Pius X, this in reality never really happened except on Sundays and feast days in most parishes. The daily parish Mass remained the Low Mass in most places and still does in places with a daily Tridentine Mass outside of a few monasteries or seminaries.

No, the Leonine Prayers are not part of the Mass by accretion - even though the average Mass-goer probably assumed the contrary. And the sad fact that most people rarely if ever had access to an authentic Solemn High Mass does not refute my point that the Solemn High Mass is normative - "normative" means what is supposed to be going on, not what actually goes on! To offer a simpler example, the altar used for the Roman Mass is normatively (albeit rarely!) covered with a full antipendium, is free-standing and is made entirely of stone. How many of those did most people see? Incognitus

incognitus:

You should come by sometime, and experience it.

God bless,

Rony

I should be delighted and grateful to attend the Chaldean Qurbana (in the form of the Raza, please!) wtih the fullest solemnity - and would try to prepare myself for the experience by studying the relevant texts as carefully as possible. However, alas, I am at a very considerable distance from the nearest Chaldean Church where this might be possible, and I have obligations of my own. Therefore, I offer a humble but serious suggestion: is it not possible for some parish with a fully suitable temple (equipped as it should be), with a full complement of clergy, and with superbly good chanters to produce a high-quality video-recording of the Qurbana done with full solemnity? Such a video-recording would be a precious treasure and a marvelous gift to the Church ("gift" here does not mean that the recipients should not contribute appropriately to the cost of production). Incognitus

incognitus:

I'll see what I can do for you. I'll ask around if a video is already available. If not, I'll see if one can be made.

God bless,

Rony

Dear Rony,
Thanks! Such a video really would be wonderful.
Incognitus

Disclaimer: the following is done with the tongue firmly planted into the cheek, please do not take it seriously.

I have decided that the only Liturgy that I will attend will be where the Priest bilocates, concelebrates, and levitates all at the same time. That way I KNOW that the holy spirit is there.

Postclaimer: You may now get back to your regularly scheduled historical discussion on the historical basis of the different rites.

Rony and Incognitus,

Recently, Deacon Lance posted a link here to some photos of St. Joseph's Chaldean Catholic Church in Troy, MI. In the discussion that followed, I noted that the photos were an addendum to a paper on the East Syrian Holy Qurbana, done by a young man named Andrew Casad for a theology course on Eastern Liturgies.

These are the relevant links:

Byz Forum Thread - Pictures of Chaldean Catholic Parish

Photos - St Joseph\'s Chaldean Catholic Parish, Troy, MI [nd.edu]

The Chaldean Catholic Mass: Liturgical Mediation of Heaven & Earth [nd.edu]


I would wonder about the possibility that such a video may have been produced by Mr. Casad in conjunction with that endeavor? At the moment, it's too late (or too early) for me to consider how one might check out the prospects. The tiny one has opted for sleep, so I may as well go for it too, while I can.

Many years,

Neil

Irish Melkite:

Thank you for posting these links. I frequently look on the Internet for any information regarding my Church, and this is the first time I have seen this link to St. Joseph's and the link to Andrew's paper. I am going to comment a little on the thread started by Fr. Deacon Lance.

Andrew left an email address on his paper, so I will email him about it.

God bless,

Rony

Unfortunately Andrew did not make a videotape of the Liturgy, but that's ok, I'm still inquiring elsewhere for a tape.

By the way, this is Andrew's website: http://www.nd.edu/~acasad/

God bless,

Rony

I have longed for so long to go a Chaldean liturgy. Byzantine is great, Trindentine is beautiful, the current normantive mass is great, but I still long to go to a Chaldean liturgy.

As far as the oldest liturgy goes, in the West there were many many liturgies each sharing many of the same prayers. After the Council of Trent when the Tridentine mass was normalized, it was demanded that everyone adopt it unless they could demonstrate a liturgy that was older than a few hundred years of their own. The Tridentine mass included many of the favorite parts of various liturgies, though the heart of it is the Roman Canon which is strictly of Western Origin and has remained unchanged since the first few hundred years of the Church. There are many liturgies that are very very old. They are proper to the place from which that came, and no one can properly claim credit for them but the people who used them. I will say, however, that it is fallicious that the Romans used greek in their Liturgy. One of the oldest fragments that we have from any liturgy is in latin, and it read, quite simply "Dominus Vobiscum/Et Cum Spiritu Tuo". Both the liturgies in he East and the West claim apostolic origin, both have parts to them which are older and newer, and neither can take credit for the other. This also simply because there wasn't so much a division in the Church. Rome may include the Kyrie to show the universality of the Church, but it was still Rome's Kyrie in union with the Kyrie of all the other particular Churches. It seems important to me to look with wonder on the other rites and to enjoy the beauty of the diversity of God's Church without trying to take credit for it. The fact is there are several liturgies which can justly claim apostolic origins as well as several which directly. It seems right to me that it should have developed so.

Joseph

Laudetur Iesus:

I see that you are from Ann Arbor, Michigan. Just so you know, there are five Chaldean parishes in Michigan. I'm not familiar with the geography of Michigan, so I'm not sure which one is closest to Ann Arbor. I'll just go ahead and list all five of them for you, their addresses, and phone numbers, incase you decide one day to attend one of them for the Liturgy.

Our Lady of Chaldeans Cathedral
(Mother of God Church)
25585 Berg Road, Southfield, MI, 48034
248-356-0565

Sacred Heart Church
310 West Seven Mile Road, Detroit, MI, 48203
313-368-6214

Mar Addai Church
24010 Coolidge Highway, Oak Park, MI, 48237
248-547-4648

Saint Joseph Church
2442 Big Beaver Road, Troy, MI, 48083
248-528-3676

Saint Thomas Church
6900 Maple Road, West Bloomfield, MI, 48322
248-788-2460

God bless,

Rony

Dear Rony,

I was wondering if you would do us the favour and discuss a bit about the liturgical differences between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian?

What, in other words, do "you do" that they don't?

You have icons - I understand they don't, but could they?

In what ways would the Assyrians consider you to be "Latinized" if they indeed do?

Does the Assyrian tradition have prayer-beads and, if so, does the Chaldean Church have it too - or is the Chaldean practice in this regard an imitation of the Western rosary?

How many Ecumenical Councils does the Chaldean Church recognize? I ask this within the context of the debate here that we of the Byzantine tradition formally recognize the Seven Ecumenical Councils and consider the other 14 Latin Councils to be local.

But with your tradition, this is a different matter, on the face of it, since your Church goes back to the Second Council when Nestorius was condemned.

And, finally, what is the attitude of the Chaldean Church today toward Mar Nestorius, Mar Theodore of Mopsuestia and Mar Diodore of Tarsus?

Could these be venerated in a future united Church?

Is it even an issue?

I thank you in advance for sharing what you can with us!

Alex