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Incognitus:

I spoke to my bishop on Sunday, and it looks like I will be able to get a copy of a tape of him celebrating the Holy Liturgy at that beautiful church of St. Joseph's back when he was only a priest, but I'm not sure over all the details yet, so stay tuned.


Orthodox Catholic:

Good thought provoking questions I'll try my best to answer them:

I'll give you a couple of examples:

1. In our Liturgy of mar Addai and mar Mari, the priest recites the words of Institution. The Assyrian Church generally does not do so in her celebration of this Liturgy. I say "generally" because in the "Guidlines for Admission to the Eucharist Between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East" the following is written: "When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East."

2. In our Liturgy, we refer to the Virgin Mary as the Mother of God. Shortly before the Creed, the priest says: "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. At the holy altar, let there be the memory of the Virgin Mary, the mother of God." The Assyrian Church of the East does not refer to her as Mother of God but does call her the Mother of Christ our God and Savior. Despite this, the "Common Christological Declaration Between the Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East" does say the following: "We both recognize the legitimacy and rightness of these expressions of the same faith and we both respect the preference of each Church in her liturgical life and piety."


I honestly don't see why they couldn't. They do have the story of the Mandylion of Edessa where it is said that the sick King Abgar of Edessa was healed through a cloth containing an imprint of Jesus' facial features on it, thus the appropriatness of images. However, I'm not exactly sure why they don't have them. Perhaps if there are any Assyrian members on this forum who can comment on this.


Here are a couple of examples that can be considered as latinizations (Sometimes it's difficult to tell between what is a latinization and what is an organic development):

1. In my parish (I presume in other Chaldean parishes as well), unleavened bread is used for the Eucharist, whereas traditionally it was leavened.

2. In the Creed, the filioque is recited, whereas traditionally it was not.


I am not aware of the Assyrian Church having any tradition of prayer beads or ropes. Chaldean Catholics imitate the Western rosary.


We formally recognize all 21 of them as ecumenical. The Assyrian Church of the East does not formally accept the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus where Nestorius was condemened, but we do. We accept all of them as ecumenical because the Pope regards them as such (cf. CCEC Can. 51-54).

By the way, Anthony Dragani, himself a Byzantine, will also say that all Eastern Catholic Churches including the Byzantine ones officially recognize 21 ecumenical councils. Here it is: Anthony\'s answer [ewtn.com]


I will try to answer the rest in a few days.

God bless,

Rony

Dear Rony,

As for Anthony Dragani, when it comes to the Councils, he really doesn't know what he is talking about .

It is interesting that the Assyrians don't have a tradition of the prayer rope - especially since we know that the ancient pagan Assyrians invoked their gods using knotted cords! And perhaps that is why the Assyrian Christians don't have prayer ropes . . .

Byzantine Catholics have tended to look to their Mother Orthodox Churches as setting the ultimate liturgical standard for what we should be about in our worship.

In the case of the Chaldeans and Assyrians, it would be different, I surmise, because of the great historic issues regarding Christology that originally divided the Assyrian and Orthodox-Catholic Churches.

What I mean is that the terms your two Churches use with respect to the Virgin Mary is not only about the issue of Westernization - but, more importantly, about an important doctrinal issue i.e. her Divine Maternity.

Before the Chaldeans and Assyrians may unite in one confessional terminology in this respect, there has to be a clear statement of doctrinal intent concerning the issue at hand.

So a "return to ancient tradition" is made more "difficult" precisely because of the historic Christological controversies in which your Church was front and centre in at the second Council.

And whether or not Byzantine Churches have Orthodox saints on its calendar is less of a problem than in your Churches' case since a number of Assyrian teachers have been outrightly condemned as heretics.

But a Chaldean priest I know (who used to use our Basilian school chapel for the Qurbono) invited Assyrian priests to concelebrate with him and told me he didn't believe the ancient condemnations against the Assyrian teachers "apply" or at least could be easily revoked upon reunion.

He used to get our Basilian Fathers angry when he explained to them that Nestorius was himself a Basilian . . .

Thank you for sharing your Church's life with us!

Alex

Dear Rony, I eagerly await further news of that videotape! And thanks for going to the trouble.
Incognitus

Dear Friends, So far, nobody has mentioned the Liturgy of St.James the Brother of the Lord, which has to be the oldest BYZANTINE Rite Liturgy.This Liturgy was unknown to the Russian Church, so neither the Old Believers nor the Ukrainian/Ruthenian Catholics ever used it to the best of my knowledge.It might be known to the Melchite Church, since it has been preserved in both Greece and the Jerusalem Patriarchate.It was translated into Slavonic and served for the first time by Russian clergy in Yugoslavia in the 1920's.It is now served at Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville ,NY, on the Feast of St.James,Nov 5th N.S..I've never served it nor seen it served,it requires at least 2 Priests or a Priest with a Deacon. In the late 70's it was translated into English by Hieromonk John (Lewis), then of ROCOR. Somewhere I have a copy of this translation, which he was kind enough to send me a copy.I can,t locate it right now, so I can't comment further,but it certainly is older than St.Basil's Liturgy which was slightly modified by St. John Chrysostom.

Shlomo Fr. Al,
The Liturgy of St. James IS the Liturgy for all Antiochene Christians. Both the Syriac and Byzantines Antiochene Chrisitians use it. It is the only tradition that was not crushed by the Byzantination of the Melkite Church. It is celebrated only once a year on 23 October.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

I go to an Antiochian Orthodox Church, and used to attend vespers at a melkite Church, all I have seen was the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, I thought that only the Monophysites use the Liturgy of St. James. We have one of there parishes like 4 miles from my house, one of my Eastern Catholic friends went there she said it was very intresting.
Dont see Saint James liturgy much.

In Christ
Daniel

Shlomo Dan,
Maronites are not nor never have been Monophysites. Further, Oriental Orthodox Churches would point out that they are not nor were Monophysites. Here is what Syiac Orthodox Maphryono Mor Gregorius Bar 'Ebroyo (1226-1286) wrote:

Both the Eastern Orthodox Communion and the Catholic Communion recognize that the above to be true.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Orthodox Catholic:

I emailed a Chaldean seminarian friend of mine on this one, asking him if the above three are currently considered heretics by our Church, and he replied with the following:

"It depends whom you ask. If you ask me, no. Officially, however, they are still considered heretics."

Regarding whether or not they could be venerated in the future if and when the Assyrian Church reunites with us, he stated that this is certainly an issue, and one of the reasons why he's writing a thesis partially on Theodore which he hopes will lead to a positive dialogue.

I'll let Anthony defend himself on this one

It is certainly much harder for us

I'm curious, do you know what was the name of this priest?

God bless,

Rony

There is a parallel Greek-English edition of the Liturgy of Saint James available from the Greek Archdiocese - it can probably be obtained from the Holy Cross Seminary bookstore in Brookline, and perhaps from Light and Life. There's an English-only edition published by the British Orthodox Church (Coptic Patriarchate of Alexandria) and various other editions have appeared. There is also a Ukrainian translation published several decades ago by a Basilian priest in Brazil. Incognitus

Dear Fr.Al -

The Turchanie Old Believers (cossacks who migrated to Turkey) used the Liturgy of St James together with other Liturgies prior to leaving Turkey (1970's?).

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Dear Fr. Mark, Did these Cossacks get their priests from the Hierarchy which originated in Bea Krinnitsa in the 19th ccenturey? It may be that this was something overlooked by the Nikonian reforms.I would really like to see an Old Believer Sluzhenik for this Liturgy. In Christ, Fr.Andrei

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon us. Amen.

Dear Fr Andrei - bless.

Strangely enough, they were provided with Old Ritualist priests from the Ecumenical Patriarchate. However, the manuscripts they used were of pre-Nikonian Russian origin. Sadly, the volumes in question were confiscated by the Turkish authorities as articles of special historical interest.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Greetings Everyone,

Here is a copy of the St. James Liturgy courtesy of the New Advent [newadvent.org] website.

Pax

To resurrect a thread that has died out, what can anyone tell me of the Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril, and its placement in time?

Gaudior,

Two choices.

The Liturgy of Saint Cyril from ca. 347-348, which is said to basically be the Liturgy of Saint James. See:

Liturgy of Jerusalem [ewtn.com]

or,

That of the Copts, said to be St, Mark's Liturgy in essence, translated by St. Cyril (376-444), Patriarch of Alexandria . See:

Coptic Liturgy of St Mark, Commonly Known as Liturgy of St Cyril [copticchurch.net]

Many years,

Neil