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I was not trying to say that you denied any Dogma or doctrine, I was just confused by someone who said that Eastern Catholics did not need to Excpet the Ecumenical Councils after the schism. I do not think Mary's Role was "in the shadows." I understand that the Eastern Catholics do not deny the Immaculate Conception, but the EO do not hold it as dogma. Yes the Pope does not make new Doctrine. I am sorry if I offended you, im just new to eastern Christainity, and was confused.

God Bless,

Sam

Dear Sam,

You did NOT offend me, Sir!

That's the way I normally write - although there have been occasions when the Administrator here has taken exception to some of my, shall we say, more demonstrative expletives?

The point here is simply that the Councils of the RC Church following the Seventh Ecumenical Council do not teach EC's anything that would be new to them dogmatically or otherwise.

However, the last I looked, acceptance of all 7 Ecumenical (prior to the schism) and 14 Catholic and Ecumenical (after the schism) Councils is binding on all Catholics. The issue of renaming the later 14 universal Latin Councils as "Local Councils of the RC Church" is something we discuss here as a possibility for future ecumenical talks with the Orthodox and also as something that would better affirm our Eastern identity etc.

The Orthodox do not accept the Immaculate Conception - this is true.

However, when RC's see this, they often tend to immediately conclude that the Orthodox believe the Mother of God was born with the "stain of Original Sin" on her soul as a result.

And this is simply not true. The Orthodox do not accept the Augustinian notion of a "stain" involving Original Sin in the first instance.

In addition, the Mother of God/Theotokos was conceived in holiness, otherwise there would not be a feast-day in honour of her Conception in the womb of St Anne.

So there is no need for Eastern Christians to hold a dogma of the "Immaculate Conception" due to a differing understanding of Original Sin. The total holiness of the Mother of God from her Conception is not an issue for the Orthodox/EC's.

As for the downplaying of devotion to the Virgin Mary in the RC church prior to John Paul II - I think we will agree to disagree. Certainly, traditional Catholic circles experienced no such downplaying. But I think there was such a thing in a general way in certain RC circles - and Pope John Paul II, God bless him, put a stop to that.

My RC priest-teachers from my Catholic college privately shared with me these issues and their great relief at how Pope John Paul the Great made a "turn-around" on the issue of Marian devotion.

If you feel there was no such thing, that is fine. I don't know how old you are - I'm fifty and I remember that whole matter quite vividly.

Alex

Thanks!

your posts are very informative and i thank you for answering my questions.

about making the later 14 ecumenical councils "local councils" sounds like a bad idea to me.

Yes less traditional Catholics (especially in the US with the protestant influences) are not so attached to Mary.

God Bless,

Sam

Sam You dont seem to understand that as we Eastern Rite Catholics are in communion with the Pope of Rome, that means we hold to everything the Catholic Church teaches about what it is.

The Popes expect us follow their instruction to delatinise and renew ourselves in the various traditions that the Church holds and estemes as truly Catholic but is not Latin Rite.

I had a similar negative reception at a Greek parish! It wasn't the priest but a woman who told me to go to the Russian church, why was I coming to the Greek church, it wasn't *my* community. And I have run into that sort of attitude in many Greek parishes in the bigger cities -- a certain ethnic arrogance.
It's just plain wrong!

Dear Nonna,

OFCOURSE it is wrong!

As a Russian Orthodox, you know how pathetically ethnically divided we Orthodox are in this country!

Alice, your Greek Orthodox sister in Christ

gee, Alice!
you won't believe that I was thinking of you yesterday when I had a conversation with a Russian Orthodox friend about the Greek church in Chattanooga. the Greeks went through four Priests in one year ( ), when finally the Bishop had enough and told them to clean up their act, or no Priest (and I guess no more parish).
The Greeks were actually turning away converts because they were not of Greek ethnicity. so the converts turned to the OCA parish in Knoxville who welcomed them with open arms, and now, after a period of time had passed, have a mission in Chattanooga.
When I first contacted the Greeks in the eighties, the young Priest there was welcoming, and he even passed over the opportunity to have a conniption over the fact that I was Eastern Catholic, though he did invite me to come over. when I attended Paschal Liturgy (1987), I looked in awe at all the people of obvious Northwest European ancestry (including a few former Episcopalians of my aquaintence) filing down the aisle to receive the Holy Mysteries. Father Tom, my Priest friend, had done much to welcome different people into Orthodoxy, but told me that the Hellenistic chauvinists gave him a lot of grief because he preferred Christ over ethnic chauvinism, his church was to be Orthodox Christian, not Orthodox Greek. Father Tom was Greek on both sides and was raised in a Greek neighborhood in Cincinatti, but he did not like the idea of an ethnic ghetto instead of a church.he left in 1988 for Texas, by the way.
Alice, we Eastern Catholics have our own problems with people who seem to honor ethnicity over Christ and His Church, but waddayagonnado? (how's that for a New York City expression)
Much Love,
Jonn

Dear Moderator Alice,

I just love y'a!

Your servant,

Alex

Dear Alice,
yeah, and sadly its not confined to any few ethnicities, people of all ethnicities can make this "insider/outsider" error. John Nightwatcher really gets at it in his post too.

I was talking to an episcopal curate who had travelled to Jerusalem and told me about how the Orthodox there turned a complete cold shoulder to him. It seemed so "unChrist-like" if I can use that term. If anyone should be trying to lead by example you think it would be the priests and monks in the Holy Land.

But its so hard for people to not judge others who are different from them. Usually its fear that causes them to judge and the fear is driven by ignorance.

On the other hand (to completely turn the tables on this discussion :p ) I once read an article where a Black said: "we're integrated during the week we don't want to have to be integrated on Sunday."
And this is how I understood that comment -- when we are raised in a given religious and cultural environment, it gets imprinted on us. It's part of our childhood that we carry with us into adulthood. That is our community and we don't want to have to experience an "artificial" community based on some notion that ethnicity should be erased. I prefer very much to go to a Russian Orthodox church with services in Old Church Slavonic. But I want the sermon to be in English! If there were a Greek church and a Russian church side by side on the same street in my town, I'd go to the Russian one. Because I love the quality, the pacing, the music. The music is not the same in the Greek Church. And the Russian liturgical music adds so much to the depth and complexity of the quality of prayer. I really miss it.

And its not because I'm racist, or ethnicist or exclusive that that is where I would choose to go (if I had the choice) on a Sunday. Nor should anyone else feel labeled an "ist" because they prefer a certain cultural milieu.

There are bitter fights over whether services should be in English or in a "foreign language" and as a native English speaker I concede that I get more out of a service that's in English -- but only for the more complicated stuff. I know that Hospodi po milou means Lord have mercy. and PoDai Hospodi means Grant it oh lord, so I'd think why not have the choir sing that in Slavonic. . .And then there's the added aspect that some languages are more melismatic than others, meaning that their musical qualities are greater. A hymn sung in old Slavonic ...again, something esoteric, so beyond description...(expecially if the choir can sing in tune!) so on the other hand I feel that a rigid adherence to "only English" creates a loss of something reverent and special.

...nonna

This is not an Orthodox/Eastern Catholic problem. It is a Christian problem. Walk in to a Korean Presbyterian church, and I imagine they might ask you what you're doing there.

Most congregations are divided by race or by socio-economic status.

Andrew

At the last Divine Liturgy that I was at I felt a stirring within me when I sang "Lord Have Mercy," and I didn't when singing "Hospdi Pomylui." I don't know, we live in a country where English is the primary language. It think it would help the immigrants assimilate to the culture better if they were encouraged to speak English more, starting with the Liturgy. That's a comfortable way to learn, no pressure there and one already knows the interpretation. One will not be able to make it in America if he doesn't speak English.

And believe it or not, but I completely understand your experience and your preference.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that honestly I've had a similar experience. YEt I wish I could have it both ways. (of course that would make the service twice as long, wouldn't it! That's a lot of standing to do just for the love of two languages.)