www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Ukrainian Sex, Lies, and Vatican

Dear Dr. John,

A worthy dream. An appropriate prayer.

Elias

Dear Friends,

The Christian charity and idealism in the last several posts are wonderful.

However, we are still left with the conclusions made by our Orthodox professor, Thomas Mether.

That the military was used to oust Russian Orthodox from parishes is something about which I have no doubt whatsoever.

To preach about the morality of this from an Orthodox point of view without, in the least, saying "boo" about 1946 and how the Russian Orthodox was complicit in the military takeover and destruction of the "Uniate Church" is, frankly, the real Christian morality issue.

The tragedy is that Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholic Churches have conducted relations behind the backs of police and army units.

It is also interesting to hear someone with sympathies to Russian Orthodoxy put up NATO (or the U.S.) as a paragon of truth and international justice.

The Uniates will fess up to what they have been up to. They have done that already and will continue to do it.

The Russian Orthodox are as guilty, but have yet to even make the hint they are sorry in public.

And if the Uniates are as murderous as the documents give them credit for, then how come the Russian Church is still around there?

Are the Uniates going soft or something? Have they run out of ammunition?

Another issue is how a university professor who would be ready to give a failing grade to a student for lack of objectivity, can fail in that respect so miserably on this issue.

Sorry, professor, but I feel I can say this since I'm not taking any of your courses,

Alex

Dear Professor Mether,

On second thought, I wondered if you accept an apology from this Uniate?

I am outside the True Church, you see, so I am filled with prelest and the darkness of ignorance and spiritual insensitivity.

I would warn you against too long a sojourn at this Forum among people like me.

Heresy like mine is infectious and it could get to you when you least expect it.

Flee from all such unworthy temptations, O Teacher of the Truth!

Do not tarry in this vale of tears!

Alex

I think this is a pretty dubious little piece of scholarship.

What does the Vatican have to do with the local situation in Ukraine? To somehow imply that the Vatican supports any type of violence against Russia or the Russian Orthodox Church is absolutely ridiculous. Especially in the pontificate of HH John Paul II, it should be crystal clear that the Vatican supports nothing less than peace and good relations with Russia. The Vatican can't control every group (paramilitary or otherwise) which is made up of Catholics. The actions of one group can't be seen to be representative of the Vatican't position on something.

Secondly, while I don't support violence, is it that much of a surprise that Catholics in Ukraine would form a group to defend their Church and take matters into their own hands? Perhaps they should trust the government that massacred 6 million Ukrainians? Sorry, but Russia's actions in the Ukraine haven't done a heck of alot to inspire trust and good-will in the Ukrainian people.

Let's face it; churches, property and lives were taken from the Ukrainian people by Communist Russia, and neither restitution nor apologies have been forthcoming. If people in Ukraine are angry, who can blame them?

As well, the tone of your post is really lacking in charity and regard for anyone else on this forum. You say you have found posts here on Ukraine 'long on misinformed speculation, wishful thinking and "abused-spouse syndrome"'. Frankly, when you deliver your comments like this, speaking for myself I don't really care what you've found. Many people here clearly have first-hand knowledge of the situation in Ukraine, and your post shows no regard for this.

I must say, I share Alex's sentiments completely.

Mike

Dear Mike,

What I have to say is both self-serving and sincere.

You are wonderful!

Alex

Lame, all posts here!

Mether is correct as to facts but seems
to object to violence. America used a lot
of violence to forge its identity. Ask
your native Indians! You look distantly
afar from having violence in your face,
oppression in your youth, and an uncertain
future in your old age. American will only
awaken when terrorism reaches its shores
as it has elsewhere. Your founding fathers
were terrorists by today's standards.
We are trying to form a new independent
nation. Religious identity is the strongest
factor and obstacle in achieving that in
Ukraine. Practically, there is no separation
of church and state because church has not become so trivial in Ukraine as it has in America. You are Brady Bunch TV Christians.
Soon, Services will be too inconvenient for you if a remote control is not provided for you. You are fat on indulgence. Your religion is a vague search for self-validation and severely lacking in moral fibre. Some one once said by their fruits you shall know them. Boy you Americans have a lot of fruits.
In Ukraine, I am politician. I judge groups by their _ethical_ fruits: their constancy of commitment, their loyalty to conscience and other of conscience, their courage to stay the course under fire. I care not much for theology nor saints. Theology, I value, only in its assistance in making good souls.
Saints I measure not by their miraculous demonstrations of transcending the human lot (demoniacs can do that to) but their ethics.
The fruit is ethics. The criterion is ethics.
The dream and goal is ethics. Otherwise, religion is a crock. It is a means of self-validation for the weak and faint-hearted who do not have the balls nor courage to stand up for what is right here without an advance promise of infinite reward in exchange for their puny services, and worse, is mostly a narcotic-like means to delusively feel at ease with death. How many religious are truly saints in the making? Damn few. Religion, in light of such, actually seems to be a proof of atheism because there is such poor evidence of any reforming divine potency in it. Its output (saints) in relation to its input is worse than Soviet factory under five year plan. On this consideration, if communism was false, so is religion. But forget speculation. I judge by ethical fruits. In Eastern Europe, Roman Catholics and Orthodox have solid identities and commitments. They are predictable characters. They have fibre and character.
If agreement between two is reached, THEY can be relied upon. Uniates lash out at Rome. Uniates lash out at Orthodox. Uniates say they are Catholic. Uniates say they are Orthodox. When pressed, Uniates get selective in their account of who they are as circumstances dictate. Uniates have no character. They are the former serfs under Polish lords who will betray anyone to survive. They have no clear sense of their loyalties, commitments, nor allegiances. They are the don juans of ethical commitments. They are the playboys of responsibility. They are the turncoats, traitors, and Judas Iscariots when ever circumstances force either taking a stand or betraying others. As they have done since Ukrainian independence, they use violence only to survive, without honor, without moral fibre, without character, and thus, they are the luke warm to be vomited from God's mouth.
No one is perfect. But some non-uniates do have a sense of identity, character, honor, and the fibre to stand up for their commitments that is raw material for ethical formation or reformation. Their potential violence is predictable and avoidable because their commitments are constant. One can know what will tick them off and avoid. Their promises are thus dependable because their commitments are constant. They are the good soil for the seeds of ethics because their commitments are constant. We can trust Orthodox and Roman Catholics. By contrast, uniates are cowardly hypocrites willing to become anything to anyone as if they were religious prostitutes uniating with all comers. They would not have been martyrs in ancient Rome. They would have been uniates to the emperor's image and betrayed their fellow Christians. No firm identity, no firm commitments, no dependable or reliable responsibility, uniates in Ukraine are
neither ethical nor the reliable raw material out of which to form anything ethical. I judge by ethics and potential for becoming ethical. Uniates demonstrate their incapacity repeatedly. Ukraine would love to see communion between east and west. Uniatism is not the kind of communion anyone is looking for unless they are ethically challenged, spiritually lite, and aspire to be a Washington intern.

Dear Prince of Chernihiv,

Number one, if you are politician, then you must to learn to speak better Ukrainian than you do, weethout Russhyn aksent.

As for the Uniates, you have no idea what you are talking about. Your views on religion in general are interesting and I would largely agree with you.

But to condemn all Uniates is simply wrong and sinful.

Your disrespect in this regard borders on a kind of racism turned on a religious group.

You know nothing of the suffering of the Uniates.

God will judge us whether we were right or wrong, as God will judge you in the same way.

Learn to be respectful of ALL religions, Your Highness.

Otherwise, you betray the attitudes of the atheistic Soviet regime in your own character.

My grandmother helped many Orthodox Christians and RUssian soldiers fighting HItler.

She always told me that if you had nothing good to say about someone, say an Our Father.

And if you, Your Highness, cannot bring yourself to behave in a civilized manner on this Forum with people of different religious backgrounds, many of whom resent the term "Uniate," then you should just go back to your life of hate and recrimination and stay away from here.

I will pray that your eyes be opened.

Alex

Your Highness,

I rejoice for you, that the Lord has cleansed you of all sin, and set you high above the rest of mankind to judge even those you do not know.

As for me and my house, we still have to struggle to serve the Lord.

Please pray for us. Obviously you are beyond any need of that sort.

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Dear Sharon,

You remind me of a U.S. army chaplain, Fr. Kapaun, who is up for canonization.

He was in Korea when he was taken prisoner by the North Koreans as he was giving the Last Rites to a U.S. soldier.

He was publicly berated by a "Comrade Sun" while in a POW camp. But he berated back and got Sun so upset (no, I'm not fishing around for a pun).

Once a friend of his found Fr. Kapaun in a corner of the camp.

When asked what the matter was, Fr. Kapaun simpy said, tongue in cheek, "You know when our Lord told us to love everyone, I'm sure he didn't have Comrade Sun in mind!"

He was eventually killed by the Koreans by injection and his Cause was introduced at Rome.

Alex

[By contrast, uniates are cowardly hypocrites willing to become anything to anyone as if they were religious prostitutes uniating with all comers.]

And Uniates are also human beings with feelings. People who have given you the courtesy to visit their home (website) so you can share your thoughts, ideas, respect for your fellow human beings, and love for God with them.
Apparently you, yourself have not reached that same point that you seem to accuse them of.
If you can't disagree with them (I do many times) in a respectful manner either keep your mouth shut (like I do) or leave.

Bob
[An Orthodox devout Catholic]

Or at least follow the above example and go to some other site, e.g., the Indiana list, to slander us and our "Polish Pope."

[This message has been edited by RichC (edited 07-26-2001).]

So what is your point?
The MP was a well known colaborator with the communist and the kgb.
Stephanos

Dear Prince,

I ask you again to join me and the others:

Austraian, North American, Central American, and South American, Europeans and Africans and Asian, persons from all over the earth.

Still others: Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Eastern and Oriental Catholic and Roman Catholic, as well as Protestants, and Jews.

Even those who are Moslems, followers of religions which do not know of Jesus, and even athiests, agnostics, and all unbelievers.

Let us all stand in silence in the Presence of The One in Three Who made us all. It is here, not in ethics, not in nationality, or correct religion that all people find their meaning and their purpose. We live for His reasons; for His purpose; for His glory.

Then may we join together, those of us who believe, and pray that we may all learn to look at our brothers and sisters in way that He does, with love. The love that drove Him to become Man and to come among us today in His Spirit.

I suggest again, respectfully, this: being is of Being and that that Being, from which all being comes, acts in Love. If a place or person or idea leads us to treat or speak to or speak of another person or group of person in a way that shows disrespect for their being; that place or person or idea does not contribute to theosis. With that as the basis of our conversation, we can talk.

Your anger with Americans and your perception of their moral defects and your anger with Uniates and Uniatism and their very being is evident. What is not evident in your words is the love which is to be the driving force of fraternal correction and speech among Christians. At least it is not evident to this poster.

If this is true, where is God in what you are doing? I ask this sincerely, not as some sort of judge or saint. I ask as a fellow pilgrim with concern for the well being of you and me and the other posters who might be tempted to post here.

If you find that love lacking in what you say, as it seems to be, then you violate your own concern for ethics. Committment to the Law of Love is the end and source of behavior for followers of the Crucified and Risen One. It is that Law and not your perception of what is ethics and morality which is the road to theosis for us all.

I ask you, my fellow believer, to practice that law by displaying it in one of its most basic manifestations. Do not abuse the hospitality of your hosts. If you accept their hospitality, reward it as did the angels who accepted the hospitality of Abraham. That is the Law of Love as we are told it was practiced by the One In Three. It is the way that we are called to behave.

If you cannot do at least this, you might become a roadblock to growth in love for you and me and others here. If that be the case, if the eye and the hands are leading to evil.... Perhaps further postings of this nature would be better offered elsewhere.

Please do not let the written expression impede the meaning or the love!

Joy!


[This message has been edited by inawe (edited 07-27-2001).]

Well said, inawe.

Truth is, the fellow in question expressed several opinions I disagreed with. I didn't appreciate him dissing my country (which I love immensely) or my religion (ditto) or even a past job of mine (yes, I was once an intern - a totally and abosutely G-rated and positive working experience!).

I didn't actually see how the gentleman's post really contributed to the discussion, other than to annoy some people. Perhaps we should just extend the offer to him and other interested parties to converse via a new thread, in a civil manner, on identifiable substantive issues of interest to Byzantines, and just move on in that manner.

There is much to be learned from passionate debate, but little from shrill argument.



[This message has been edited by missus_p (edited 07-31-2001).]