www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Ukrainian Sex, Lies, and Vatican

I have been monitoring the posts here on
the Ukraine and MP and found them long on
misinformed speculation, wishful-thinking, and shall I say, abused-spouse syndrome
(uniatism is perhaps that in essence)
and very short on fact.

The following are well-researched,
well-documented, and cross-referenced
facts ranging from Russian Orthodox
sources, to NATO sources, and even,
Vatican sources. A bibliography will
be provided on demand.

1. Despite Vatican IIs avowed commitment
against the use of force in matters of conscience, despite Rome's agreements with
Moscow, Catholic Uniates used military and
para-military force to do just that in 1989
through 1994. Ivan Ghel, heading the Uniate
Committee for the Defense of the Ukrainian
Catholic Church, made extensive use of OMON
Special Operations Spetnaz forces to physically kill, maim, and otherwise injure
Orthodox in the Galicia Province in an effort
to forcibly turn over Orthodox parishes and congregations to Uniate control (most of which were NEVER uniate). This is documented
by a number of separate and independent sources, including NATO, which finds it a problematic reason to put the Ukraine's membership on hold (delegating it to mere
partnership status - sort of a NATO uniate).

As far as the two uncanonical "Orthodox" jurisdictions that Ukrainian rumors (which the MP and Greek Orthodox church too readily
took as true even though there is no official word from the Phanar and EP), here is the origins and history.

2. Ioann (Bodnarchuk)starts an autocephalist "orthodox" church movement in
the western Ukaine. The so-called "ordinations" for this group was by an imposter posing as a "Bishop Vikentii of Tula." The fact is that this Vikentii never was a bishop but was a former Russian Orthodox deacon defrocked years before for molesting young boys. The ordinations of this group are not valid.

3. After a 1990 trip to the US in a failed attempt to convince ROCOR that he was a "catacomb bishop" with suspicious sexual
activities that drew the attention of the FBI, this same Vikentii finds it prudent to
suddenly slip away back to the Ukraine.

4. Later in that same year (1990), this same
Vikentii declares himself to be a uniate. Despite having information that his past was suspicious both in terms of ecclesial bone fides and sexual perversions, the uniate Metropolitan of Lvov,a Volodymyr Sterniuk, makes this Vikentii Uniate Bishop of Russia (more on this below when the Vatican gets wind of this).

5. On another note (for those here who seek to trash and denigrate the MP), in accordance with the Moscow Sobor of 1917-18, the Moscow Patriarchate granted autonomy as a first canonical step towards full autocephaly to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

6. The problem was that Metropolitan Filaret's irregular sexual activities
(gross violation of celibacy, children,
wife, three mistresses) so enraged and provoked the Ukrainian episcopacy that
the majority voted and sent letters to
Moscow saying that they would not join
Kiev and stay under Moscow until Filaret
could be removed.

7. In May 1992, the Moscow Patriarchate
calls and convenes an episcopal council
(including all Ukrainian bishops)to discuss Filaret and the derailing of the canonical
process towards autocephaly due to his misconduct. All but two bishops voted against autocephaly unless Filaret was
removed. For the sake of preventing public
scandal, it was agreed by Filaret (sworn upon Bible and Cross) in session that he would return to Kiev as Metropolitan and retire. Then the already granted autonomy and already planned autocephaly of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church would proceed under
Vladimir Sabodan.

8. Upon his return to Kiev, Filaret broke his promise, betrayed his church, and declared a second autocephalous Ukrainian
"Orthodox" Church.

9. In response, a council of all Ukrainian bishops defrocked Filaret and elected Vladimir Sabodan as Metropolitan of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church which still has
the overwhelming majority of parishes in the Ukraine (7000 with both "autocephalous" groups [Galician UAOC and Filaret's UOC-KP] having about 1200, and Uniates with 1200 according to NATO figures).

10. Filaret's UOC-KP gets political and military support (OMON) from the regime of his close friend, President Kravchuk. Otherwise it remainedthan the Uniates or Galician UAOC.

11. After delivering the Vatican's severe reprimand to Sterniuk for his action of making a defrocked deacon, Vikentii again,
the uniate bishop of Russia, the uniate Cardinal Liubachivsky warned the Vatican that both autocephalous groups were ecclesiastically illegitimate on both Catholic and Orthodox grounds. Despite Vatican agreement with his assessment (mid-90s), the pope meets with them in his visit to the Ukraine. Same old tricks.


Again, a bibliography of sources for these 11 statements is available. Since this forum does not allow cut and paste, I'm not going to take the time to type the full list of sources.

What do you mean? Of course you can cut and paste on this board. I have done it several times. Let's see the sources.

And don't forget we eat babies and worship graven images too! I would really hate for your litany to be incomplete.

I have asked Bob Tallick, who is also on AOL,
whether he can or not, and if so, how.

Never "Uniate"? We forgive "Mother Russia" for murdering our people and stealing our churches. I'm just waiting for you guys to stop lying about it.

Was lie too strong a word? Nah.

You cut and paste here just like you do everywhere else.

Hi-light what you want, click on "copy" under the "edit" option, then go to "post a reply" and simply "paste" the info.

No great mystery.

This aught to be QUITE interesting.

(In the words of the Human Torch, "Flame On!" )

I think that among the 'hegemonistic' Slavs there is going to be an ongoing controversy about who 'holds' the legitimacy. When one gets caught up in the 'legitimacy' issue, there are going to be problems.

The solution: see who is best aligned to uphold the beliefs of the traditional Church. For those who claim legitimacy based upon the episcopal evidence, do some howework.

Blessings!

For some reason Professor Thomas Mether is unable to post the resources for his post. He sent me an email with the list of resources and asked if I would post it for him. So here it is.

Bob

---------------------------------------------
Sources:

� � �� Books and Articles:

Anderson, John. Religion, State, and Politics in the late Soviet Union and Successor States. (Cambridge University Press, 1994).

Bowdoin, Travis. "Religious and Nationalist Movements in Ukraine: Security Challenges for Ukrainian NATO Membership." International Secretariat Policy Review Studies Brief # 498. (Academic Affairs Unit (AAU-NATO), funded under NATO-EAPL Social Science Fellowship. Brussells (also forthcoming in NATO's new commercial publisher, Kluwer Academic Press), 2001).

Bremmer, Ian. "Post-Soviet Politics and Political Integration in Lviv," Working Papers in International Studies. I-94-13 (Standford: Hoover Institution, October 1994).

Davis, Nathaniel. A Long Walk to Church: A Contemporary History of Russian Orthodoxy. (Boulder, CO: Westview Press, 1994).

Fetieff, K.V. History of Uniate Politics in Ukraine. Central Intelligence Agency NIC-DCI Report. PB 98-999484 Springfield, Virginia: NTSI, 1998.

Karchenko, Hennadiy. "Challenges of Religious Nationalisms to Ukrainian and NATO Partnership." (Academic Affairs Unit (AAU-NATO), funded under NATO-EAPL Social Science Fellowship. Brussells, 1999.

Karchenko, Ihor. "The New Ukraine and NATO Partnership." NATO Review, No. 5, Sept. 1997.

Kyrlezhev, A. "Bog v epokhu smerti Boga." Kontinent, No. 2 (72), 1992.

Nezhnyi, A. "Ego blazhenstvo bez mitry i zhela," Ogonek, Nos. 48 & 49,
Nov.-Dec. 1991.

Pekar, Athaniasius. OSBM. The History of the Church in Carpathian Rus'.
(New York: Columbia University Press for Eastern European Monographs, 1992).

Popielovsky, D. The Orthodx Church in the History of Russia. Crestwood: St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1998.

Pospielovsky, D. "The Russian Orthodox Church in the Post-Communist Commonwealth of Independent States," Modern Greek Studies Yearbook
(University of Minnesota, 1993) vol. 9, pp. 227-266.

Pospielovsky, D. Russkaia Pravoslavnaia Tserkov' v XX veke (Moscow, 1995).

Pushkov, Alexei. "The Commonwealth of Independent States." (also know as
"the real nothing quiet on the eastern front paper"??). NATO Review, No. 3. Feb. 1992.

Subtelny, K.I. Religious-based Security Problems in Ukrainian Nationalist Trends.
Central Intelligence Agency, NIC-DCI PB 91-000724. Springfield, Virginia: 1991.

Subtelny, Orest. Ukraine: a History. (University of Toronto Press, 1988)

Szczesniak, Junusz. "Uniate Terrorism - 1989-94." Ukrainian Security Studies Notes. Hoover Institute. Stanford University. Springfield, Virginia: Central Intelligence Agency NIC-DCI-NTSI 01-076449. 2001.

Vlasovs'kyj, A. "Post-Soviet Vatican Manipulation of Uniate and Orthodox Relations
in Ukraine." Bogoslovskie trudy (Kiev, 1990), Hoover Institute Policy Notes: Stanford University 1990, and CIA-NIC-DCI PB 90-234127; Springfield, Virginia, 1990.

Zlenko, Anatoly. "Ukrainian Security." NATO Review, No. 4. Aug. 1993.

Znosko, K. Istoricheskii ocherk tserkovnoi unii (Moscow, 1993).

---------------Journals and Other Documents

Religion in Communist Lands. A Keston College Quarterly (Keston, England,
1971-1991).

Religion, State, and Society: A Follow-up to RCL. (Oxford: Keston Research, 1992-).

The Journal for the Moscow Patriarchate. 1986-95.

I have read a few of these sources myself. The conclusions reached by the good professor are based in some of the facts, but only half-truths and partial reality. These are certainly the conclusions of ONE side from one distinct perspective, without regard for the whole picture, which one will certainly get if one reads the entirety of these sources.

One will also learn of the murder of Eastern Catholics in Ukraine, Slovakia and Poland, the Patriarch of Moscow's participation in murder and oppression, not of Catholics, but of his own Russian Orthodox clergy, the banning of Eastern Catholicism from the Soviet Union and the theft or destruction of ALL of the Eastern Catholic churches by the Soviet government, etc. To accuse Ukrainian Catholics of being somehow MORE militant and MORE murderous than the Orthodox is absurd and unsupported by your documentation.

Sorry, professor, but your conclusions should not be distorted by which group you would like to support. One shouldn't read source documents with a highlighter to mark paragraphs that support your position while ignoring those that either contradict it or at least put events in context.

Certainly after the fall of the Soviet Union Catholics and Orthodox both could have been more Christian. The Russian Orthodox Church has a lot of issues it is going to have to face in the near future. I think Catholicism is one of the least of its problems, but the greatest of its fears.

[This message has been edited by cizinec (edited 07-13-2001).]

I think that cizinek's post is a diamond of astute thought and a model of succinct to-the-point commentary:

"Certainly after the fall of the Soviet Union Catholics and Orthodox both could have been more Christian. The Russian Orthodox Church has a lot of issues it is going to have to face in the near future. I think Catholicism is one of the least of its problems, but the greatest of its fears."

Indeed. The Russian economy is on very thin ice; Russia has relied upon Ukraine "the bread-basket of central Europe" for its food supply without buttressing its own resources; there is a massive epidemic of IV drug use in Russia with hundreds of thousands succumbing to addiction every year; TB is once again raising its ugly head to claim thousands of lives yearly; HIV/AIDS cases have tripled in the last year -- at the current rate, Russia will rival Africa in numbers of infections in 10 years; the situation of working folks has gotten worse since the fall of the Communists, and is precipitating a rise in the 'let's bring back the Reds' ideology. Russian Orthodox succumbing to Catholicism? Oh yeah, this is a BIG problem.

I pray that the Lord will bring a Mother Teresa to the Russian community who will stand as a witness that the needs of the people MUST come first for true-believing Christians.

Unless this happens, the hierarchs of Russia and the other Eastern European nations will find themselves officiating over nothing; their people will be sick or dead. Just ask the South Africans: 25% AIDS infected. Zimbabwe: 30-35% AIDS infected. And in Russia and Ukraine: NO action at all.

And to make it more interesting, the Ukrainian government is planning to release 35,000 prisoners, many of whom have TB -- untreated!! -- into the general population, to celebrate Ukraine's liberation from Soviet domination. (TB is the number one killer of human beings worldwide.) God help us. It won't matter if one is Orthodox or Catholic; the community will be too busy digging graves.

Blessings!

Thomas,

As to the Ukrainian Autocephalous Church's apostolic succession, you should also be aware that while in its beginning the validity of its orders were in doubt, they have certainly gained valid orders through Polish Orthodox bishops. This has been documented by Fr. Robert Roberson. The real history of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Church can be read here: www.eastern-christian-churches.come.to [eastern-christian-churches.come.to]

Posted by Thomas Mether:
"I have been monitoring the posts here on
the Ukraine and MP and found them long on
misinformed speculation, wishful-thinking, and shall I say, abused-spouse syndrome
(uniatism is perhaps that in essence)
and very short on fact."

Funny, I thought the same thing about your claims.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate




[This message has been edited by Lance (edited 07-14-2001).]

Dear brothers and sisters, in Christ,

Thank you to cizinec for his post, and I applaud his effort to be "fair and balanced". It is a very difficult task in a climate too given to fear and suspicion.

As moderator of "East and West" I would have been tempted to delete sections of this debate, where personal defamations of Church leaders are repeated. It is the policy of this forum that Church leaders of our own communion, or of others, (whatever we may think or believe) are always addressed with courtesy and respect, as a sign of our respect for one another's Churches, as much as it is courtesy that these leaders are owed as men.

It is not correct for these reports and accusations to be repeated here. Perhaps the writers themselves would like to edit their posts?

I would have deleted them, except that they are so old and tired and over-repeated that they are hardly worthy.

However, I respectfully remind posters that such reports need not be re-produced in this forum. And I urge them to speak of Church leaders with the respectful tone in which you would want your own bishop, metropolitan, patriarch or pope addressed.

Thank you,

Elias, monk
moderator

...and...

Pasted reports quoted from other sources, are the responsibility of the poster, and are included in the norms. That they are quoted sources, does not excuse the poster of the responsibility not to repeat such reports.

Elias, monk

Father Elias and friends,

My apologies. My intent was not to malign the patriarch in question but make the point that unfounded allegations are just that, unfounded allegations; however, if one wishes to resort to them they must accept everyone's. I have deleted that section of the post at your request.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

It's clear that the machinations of the various political, governmental, ecclesiastical and societal organizations of the past 100 years have created a truly "Byzantine" history worldwide, but especially in Central and Eastern Europe.

Might I suggest that rather than focus on the past and its all too clear history of abuses and persecutions, that we look towards the future. There are so many huge problems that face Russia, Ukraine, ByeloRussia, etc. that we should focus on both the spiritual and the physical needs of the people and ways that we as Christians can cooperate to improve the status of the people.

For the 'historical' oriented folks, this may be difficult, but rehashing the past doesn't bring comfort or salvation to God's people. There is a MASSIVE heroin epidemic in Russia and Ukraine; HIV/AIDS is tripling every year; hepatitis C is killing folks by the thousands; food is frequently in short supply, especially in the cities; medical care is barely existent: some Russian doctors and nurses haven't been paid in three months. TB is once again rearing its ugly head, hundreds of thousands are infected and will die within the next 5 years.

What do we need? A Mother Teresa who will provide a witness to the Gospel of Christ. Behind such a person, all the churches can unite to serve the needs of God's people.

However, lacking such a person, cannot the hierarchies be brought together to accomplish this task? Am I being a dreamer? Perhaps, but let's not dwell upon the past and move forward to serve the people of God, no matter what Slavic language they speak.

Blessings!