www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West What would make you Orthodox?

Dear Brian,

Well, I was inspired to follow Orthodoxy from a convert to the Ukrainian Catholic Church . . .

Oh, did I mention I was also in communion with Rome?

Have a blessed Christmas, Big Guy!

Alex

Just out of curiousity --

What is someone is Western rite Orthodox and claimed the title: Roman Catholic in Union with the Orthodox Church?

Then that person posed the question: What would make you Roman Catholic?

Greg

Dear Greg,

One response to that would be to follow the Administrator's lead and say: We are already Roman Catholic!

Alex

Dear Alex:

If you ever forget to mention ". . . in communion with Rome" again, I'll be constrained to move His Eminence, Aloysius Matthew Cardinal Ambrozic, Archbishop of Toronto, to include you in the "most dangerous list" of Canadian Ukrainian Catholics.

BTW, have you heard the news about our Archbishop (Chicago), Francis Cardinal George, might be tapped by the Pope to head the Boston Archdiocese vacated by Cardinal Law?

AmdG

Dear Amado,

If he has nothing to do with St Francis or the Akathist to him I'm working on, I don't wanna know!

God bless,

Alex

for me it would be women ordination,same sex marriages and the denial of the real presence of the eucharist

Anastasios,

Thank you for explaining your points and opinions. I can see they are valid, thought-provoking, and insightful.

Yes, I meant that, as a Methodist (and Methodism isn't very ethnic) I don't have a "patrimony" that is at odds with my Methodist faith (and I do not believe in/support Methodism as I agree with Catholicism, but pretending I were a faithful Methodist). My understanding of a particular patrimony is lacking as well because, as a Protestant Methodist, there isn't a cultural identification with Methodism; I have no idea what a "Methodist patrimony" is, or even if there is such a thing.

Thanks for the comment, Alex, but I'm a little confused.

I consider myself a supporter of the "OICw/Rome" concept. I, like others on this board have stated, believe that the Chair of Peter and the Papacy is the very touchstone of Orthodoxy; Orthodoxy was in communion with Rome through the first millenium, through the Seven Councils (unless you're Oriental, Mor ). But you seem to equate this mentality as not being truly OICw/Rome, but "Eastern Catholic." Perhaps I only think I support OICw/Rome, but really support the "Eastern Catholic" mentality (which is very possible, given my inexperience and naivete).

For me, I view these things as one in the same. I am a member of my Particular Church because I belong to the Universal Church, and I am a member of the Universal Church through belonging to my Particular Church.

I always knew someone would recognize my Einstein-esque genius!!

ChristTeen287

Robert H., your testimony is so beautiful it makes me want to cry. Thank you!

Blessings,

ZT

Dear Anastasios:

As you know, I diagree. Truth is more important than patrimony. And I say that as a half-Sicilian who probably has Greek blood in there somewhere! (Sicily was ruled by practically everybody at one time or another.)

I am not discounting patrimony. But the Church Universal is bigger and broader than any one cultural tradition. And that is a Good Thing.

Ambrose said "Ubi Petrus, ibi Ecclesia." "With this Church [Rome]," said Irenaeus, "it is necessary that all other churches should agree." I would be risking my salvation to leave that safe harbor, no matter how banal the Novus Ordo may seem to be.

If your wife hates the Roman liturgy, it does seem a bad idea to subject her to it, as long as a Byzantine liturgy is available. But if only the Roman Mass is available, she can go to it and offer up her suffering for the salvation of souls (in union with the Passion of Jesus). Then her irritation with the Novus Ordo can have redemptive value! :lol But seriously, that would be preferable to jumping off the Barque of Peter. That is never a spiritually safe thing to do. Trust me. Been there, done that. Not spiritually safe.

Blessings,

ZT

Dear Alex:

Such a fascinating post on the OiCwR versus EC mindsets. The limiting cases that you describe represent interesting archetypes. And while you have described the extreme of ECism fairly well IMO, I would add to the extreme of OiCwRism a certain phobia of things Western. Which leads me to ask:

Your magnificent Akathist to Our Lady of Guadalupe.
OiCwR or EC?

djs

Dear Christ Teen:

The patrimony of Methodism is the spirituality and theological focus of John and Charles Wesley, the Book of Common Prayer of the Church of England, and that Church's mindset and liturgical expressions. Methodism was never intended to part from Anglicanism, but remain a movement within it; if the Church of England would of ordained clergy for the movement it would of stayed within the framework of Anglicanism; both Churches recognize this and are seeking union to heal the unfortunate breach that occured.

If we want to take it further the apostolic patrimony of Anglicanism is the Eastern Church and Roman Catholicism; so really as a Methodist Canonically you are safe with either or if you decide to enter the Apostolic Community.

Good luck on your journey!

It is times such as this that I wish we had an anonymous function on this forum.

That being said, I will continue.

When this topic was first posted, I could not see anything that I could really justify as a reason to leave the Catholic Church and go Orthodox. I feel that I am already practicing the Orthodox faith. I also believe that to be truly Orthodox one must be in communion with the Holy Father and Rome.

Now, out right heresy from Rome is a different matter all together, but I do not think anything such as that can happen.

That being said, after some recent experiences. Actually an experience that has been on going.

I can see why some have made the move, I believe it is due to the actions of our bishops.

I think there are many, but one that has come to light recently is the case of vocations. To use an analogy from the business world, our Eastern Catholic bishops see vocations in a certain box. If a vocation appears that can not neatly fit into the box, they ignore it or even discourage it. Whereas it appears that the Orthodox, either have a different box that is larger and more accommodating, or they are able to think out side of the box.

Now, not all Eastern Catholic bishops are this bad, it seems to go by church, the Melkites seem more open than some others..... But do not dare to mention monasticism.....

Sorry for my rant and again, I do wish there was an anonymous function here. Its also times like this that I wish I had a spiritual father locally to work things out with.

Anonymously yours,
David

Dear ZoeTheodora,

Yes, Robert sometimes brings me to tears as well . . .

Alex

p.s. Merry Christmas!

Dear djs,

I would hope that any Christian who believes in the intercession of the Mother of God would feel free to make that Akathist his or her own!

I have a Protestant friend at work who likes it . . .

Alex

Dear ChristTeen,

In addition to what Robert has said, there is a book published by St Vladimir's Seminary press that compares Methodism with Orthodoxy - perhaps Anastasios could let you know more about it.

Apart from the issue of Church tradition, the Wesleys were very much interested in sanctification and so were close to the East in this way, i.e. Theosis.

As Arminians, they were not content with "faith alone" but followed their "Method" of holiness.

Methodism is a way of life and can be followed by Christians of any tradition, including Eastern Christians.

John Wesley actually looked into becoming an Orthodox Bishop through Constantinople at one time and this is written up in the book "A Rumor of Bishops."

His rule of life prescribed one to three hours prayer morning and night, observance of the Apostolic Hours at nine, noon and three, fasting twice a week and at other times, scriptural reading, frequent attendance at the sacraments, and John even prayed on a prayer rope, a knotted cord that is still mentioned in Methodist prayer manuals to this day.

Near where I now live is the grave of Holy Ann Preston, a Methodist saint who reposed in 1906 and who prayed long and hard, sometimes through the night. God answered her prayers with miracles and the CAtholic children of her neighbourhood dubbed her "Holy Ann." I invoke her and ask her prayers, just as many Protestants and Catholics have done so for years.

Alex