www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West What would make you Orthodox?

Thanks for the extra info on Methodism, Alex and Robert.

Yes, Anastasos; do you perhaps know the name of this book and how I could purchase it?

I had heard that, and find it very interesting. What kept him from going Orthodox? What kept him from considering Catholicism?

I love the Methodist denomination very much, but ultimately to not feel called to follow the Methodist "patrimony", at least within the confines of the Methodist denomination. I think the Eastern characteristics of Methodism (or rather its connection to the East) are very fascinating, but as of right now I identify myself much better with traditional Western Catholic Christianity, perhaps because it is less foreign.

I did not know about Ann Preston; what a cool story! I've always felt that Methodism is pretty unique in relation to the rest of the Protestant philosophies, denominations, etc. If I were going to stay Protestant, I'd be Methodist...and I'm not saying that because I grew up in it. I love its stress of social action, justice, Christian communion with others, etc. Whereas going from, say, Baptist to Catholic would be a huge jump, going from the Methodist Church to Catholicism is really just expanding from a pamphlet into an encyclopedia.

+Holy Ann Preston, pray for the Methodist way of life, that those who feel called to follow it do so with their whole heart and mind and soul.

ChristTeen287

Dear Alex:

My point of course was to emphasize that the archetypes that you previously described represent extremes rather than ideals. And that the discussed sensibilities are , fortunately, not mutually exclusive, but represent the limits of a continuous spectrum of possibilities.

I would suggest that as OiCwR/EC's we are blessed with the singular opportunity to find the most fruitful balance between these archetypes - a balance that takes full advantage of the universal scope of our vision and the freedom that we enjoy as the forerunners of the post-schism church. It is this wholeness, I contend, that enables the creation, with confidence and without conflict, of beautiful "Byzantine" devotions featuring "Western" themes and saints, exemplified by your magnificent Akathist.

djs

Dear djs,

You are most kind - and articulate!

Actually, "ideal type" as I use the term is a kind of "non-existing typology" rather than an extreme - but extreme it certainly can be.

It is purposefully exaggerated to get a better feel for what it can entail.

Even the most "Orthodox" of people I've met and who define themselves that way, cradle or convert, aren't totally "Orthodox" and can almost always be found to have aspects about them that other Orthodox would routinely consider "Western" or "heretical" or "unOrthodox."

So the "ideal type" is simply a mental construct used for purposes of discussion only.

Your ideal with respect to western themes et alia is certainly worthy of striving after!

Alex

Dear ChristTeen,

Well, I just wonder if John Wesley wanted to actually become Orthodox or did he really want to obtain Apostolic orders as a Bishop from Orthodoxy for his Methodist Church in America.

Certainly, the Orthodox Church could have consecrated him on the grounds of "economia." Sergius Bulgakov, speaking to the Protestant churches of the World Council of Churches, once suggested to them to receive Orders and the other Mysteries/Sacraments from Orthodoxy on this same basis. They disagreed however . . .

Wesley read the Fathers throughout his life and did not go beyond his "Particular" or "Local" Church which was the Anglican, even though his Methodist movement later broke off from it, not according to his wishes.

Alex

Wesleyan/Free Methodist Christians provided food, clothing, and shelter for Slavic Muslim refugees in Bosnia during the Civil War. Some of them have remained there as missionaries/proclaimers of The Good News.

These chosen few know both the frustrations and consolations of our Lord's parable of the 'Mustard Seed.'(Matt.13:31-32.)

Wesley's conservative Methodist Christianity could well provide the model for an indigenous Bosnian post-Islamic ecclesial community....in about two-hundred years. Patience.

Jesus, Son of Mary, we worship You, our God.

Happy Christmas!

Abdur

Greetings!
I am a Roman Catholic and am posting for the first time.
My question is about the CCC.

# 838 The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the
baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not
profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity
or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who
believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain,
although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 1271
With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that
it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common
celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324
I am interested in what a Byzantine Catholic would understand this to mean.

I have always had a deep respect for the eastern churches and the difference in spirituality.

I am interested in what this could mean to Roman Catholics and how we might bring about a healing.

Mary

Here is St. Vlad's press bookstore:

1-800-204-2665 (Mon-Fri 9:00AM-5:00PM EST)

S T Kimbrough, editor, Orthodox and Wesleyan Spirituality
$15.95, ISBN = 0-88141-235-X, Publisher = St Vladimir's Seminary Press, 284 pp,
Generally in Stock / OrderCode = PB-ORWEKI

You might want to order it at a bookstore if possible to avoid the shipping fee though.

In Christ,

anastasios

Welcome, Mary,

A Roman Catholic is always welcome to share our Divine Liturgy and Eucharist, so long as you respect the difference of our worship.

My understanding is that the Orthodox faithful are also welcome, but that they are less likely to participate, because they have more complaints about Rome than Rome has about them. They have a problem with us, because of our ties to Rome.

Many have said that we are a bridge between the East and West in the Church. However, Patriarch Lubomyr, aka Cardinal Husar, thinks that our mission is to be a mentor. To teach the West about the East, and the East about the West.

The history of the Greek Catholic Churches in Eastern Europe has been a struggle to maintain our identity between the forces of Poland, trying to make us Latin Catholics and the Russians, trying to make us Russian Orthodox. Our mission, perhaps, is to explain to both that it is perfectly reasonable to be somthing like the other thing, but not quite. Perhaps Non-Roman Non-Russian Cathodox?

Anyway, all true believers are welcome, but we won't make you attend. Welcome once again.

Have a Blessed Day !!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Thanks for the info on the Methodist-Orthodox book, Anastasios.

ChristTeen287

Would this sentiment not be true for anyone anywhere, including yourself?

If you were to come to my home you would be required to abide by my house rules, visa versa.

Any liturgy, if valid and licit, is a sublime act!
It brings Christ to us and unites us to Him in an act of supreme love.

I have read much on your web site about liturgy...
I attend Mass at St. Thomas Aquinas College in Cal.
There they celebrate three masses every sunday. I have been to all three at some point in time. The priests there are devout and obedient to the rubrics.
The Tridentine Mass is sublime..it brings Christ to us.
The Mass of Paul Vl is sublime..it brings Christ ot us.
The High Mass of Paul the Vl (sung in latin) is sublime... it brings Christ to us.
There are no innovative silly additions. You know that you are at a meeting point somewhere between Heaven and earth! No, rather heaven and earth meet in an embrace!

This is what liturgy is meant to convey..any liturgy in any rite.

Mary

Dear Mary,

Welcome to the Forum!

Actually, the Rites you mention are all variants of the liturgical tradition of the Latin Church.

Certainly, the rubrics are different between the Tridentine and Novus Ordo Masses.

But the spirituality is the same - that of the Particular Latin Church.

The liturgical spirituality of the Particular Eastern Catholic Churches whether of the Byzantine, Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian or Chaldean Rites is markedly different in character.

That is what John means.

There is a much greater liturgical "gap" so to speak between East and West in this regard.

But certainly, the respect for the "house rules" are important anywhere.

I think you should have a look at my "Akathist to Our Lady of Guadalupe" in the Town Hall - if you do, let me know what you think!

Alex

Thanks Alex,
I home-schooled my little family and part of 'my ccd' was to take them to various rites of Holy Mother Church..(I am aware that the above mentioned are Latin Rite..it was in reference to some of the posts on the Tridentine Mass vs Mass of Paul Vl...and respect).
I spent three years in Greece, my oldest was born there. I peeked into many a Greek Church (never feeling quite welcome) and observed many a Greek Orthodox Liturgy..they were magnificent!
My husband and I both studied Arabic. He succeeded in the Arabic..I have a hard time with English. He speaks Russian also and is of immense help in my iconography. So, you see, we love cultural differences!
I see the many Rites of our one Mother to be her way of expressing Her love for her many children.
There is room for all!
I hopped over to your beautiful song of love to Our Lady of Guadalupe..it will take a while to read it all.
But I do see your deep and musical love for so great a Lady! May she reward you abundantly.

My purpose in coming to this site is to become informed and absorb more of the eastern way of thinking and understand eastern spirituality..not to judge. My one prayer in life (well, actually I have many prayers in life)is to NOT be a stumbling block to unity. Pride and ego tend to be real boulders. So I humbly ask you to be patient as I ask my questions and seek understanding.

Your sister in Christ,
Mary

Alex,

I will share with you what lead me to Orthodoxy from the EC side. It is nothing profound. I suppose I was one of those that was just passing through for a time.

Where I live, there was a small Ruthenian mission--actually they just called it a Byzantine Catholic community. I met with the priest and told him I was stuck somewhare between Constantinople and Rome. I also told him I agreed more with the Orthodox. He invited me to come, and I stayed for a while--2+ years. I thought I could be "Orthodox in communion with Rome". I probably spent too much time on message boards with hyper-vigilant RCs who saw any deviation from Latin ways as the mark of the beast. The RCs, and not the Orthdox, convinced me that "Orthodox in communion with Rome" was a sham. With my convictions, it would be better to be Orthodox, but it tooks something more than that.

Since we were a small parish/community, less than 12 regular attendees, there wasn't much diversity. Half the group was older (much older) Roman refugees. There was one married couple who was approximately my age and they led some of the chanting. They were the only ones who tried to keep the fasts. All the others, being Novus Ordo refugees or Latinized ECs, were fish on Fridays fast keepers--just like the Pittsburgh Metroplia directed. I don't judge them by their fasting--they were nice people. However, the parish had an Eastern liturgy, but a basically Latin ethos.

Friendships and a sense of duty were the only things keeping me there. When the one truly Eastern couple left to move to Texas, I felt alone. Unlike the situation of not being more than a small club, the local Antiochian church was a complete parish. My EC priest gave me his blessing and I was received into Orthodoxy via chrismation at Theophany this past year.

Joseph

Thanks for your testimony.

Although I am old, I certainly understand your desire for authentic Orthodox praxis and fellowship with kindred spirits.

However, if you had been a parishioner of a highly observant Melkite parish, would you have remained--with a clear conscience--a Catholic Orthodox believer? Was the Vatican I dogma of papal infallibility a major issue for you?

Isn't unity among the brethren worth a bit of compromise and personal sacrifice?

I'm not criticizing you, but questioning my own intentions, motives, and future. (I'm a p/t student at a Prot. seminary and...anyway.)

( BTW: I'm a pussy-cat tough-guy and I would never allow a mere RC define for me what it means to be 'Orthodox in Fraternal Union with the See of Peter.')

Merry Christmas and may the Holy Spirit guide you as you travel the Way,

Abdur

Abdur,

If I had been a member of an observant Melkite church, who knows?

I think I still would have been compromised after studying history and not believing PI was true--let alone a dogma of the church.

As far as compromise goes, I believe St. Mark of Ephesus was correct in his requests at Florence and I think Rome should honor Pope John VIII's ruling on the council of 879. I think that would fix a lot of things--or at least bring them closer.