www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West What would make you Orthodox?

[/QUOTE]May I ask your religious affiliation?

Although it really is none of your business, I am what would best be described as a fallen away Byzantine Catholic and former seminarian...so I do know what I'm talking about. And not only do I know all the stuff you are so fond of quoting, I have also knocked around this old world considerably longer than you have and know quite a bit about life in general.

[/QUOTE]This may or may not be true; I am not learned or experienced enough to know.

If you don't know about stuff like this, then you shouldn't be pontificating so much. One learns by listening with an open mind and heart. Before you start teaching and preaching you need to learn and not just from books.

[/QUOTE]As you yourself point out, I wouldn't know, and neither would you.

Ah, but your continual preaching about everything being black and white does just that. You are leaving no room for God to maneuver...He cannot be be closed up in a little box labeled catechism or the writings of the Fathers, or anything else you wish to label it.

[/QUOTE]No one ever said it's up to humans to decide who does and who does not have God's grace. I would never encourage such judgement.

There again, you do it all the time. My previous post was not aimed at just you, but since you responded as if it were so be it...if the shoe fits wear I say.

[/QUOTE]Not who, but what. Of course we can know what does and does not please God, as much as the Holy Spirit has revealed to us. If we didn't know, then we would have no sense of right and wrong except by our often-flawed consciences. What one person thinks is right another thinks is gravely wrong.

No, I stick with my use of WHO. What is important is the individual soul and his/her relationship with God. Nothing else matters. You need to read a bit more moral theology my boy. One has the responsibility to follow his/her conscience wherever it leads. It must be formed...searching the scriptures, reading the Fathers, modern theologians, consulting a spiritual father/mother...then following where you heart leads without coercion, trusting that God will lead you in the right direction.

[/QUOTE]I'm sorry, Anam, this is simply false. There are acts which incur automatic excommunication. Every Catholic theologian will tell you that.

When one commits and act whereby he/she is excommunicated ipso facto, it is a matter of the internal forum and not a public excommunication. Even so, one is still a Catholic and remains within the Church.

[/QUOTE]I haven't labeled anyone heretical. But I have named heretical acts.

You infered that people who belong to Call to Action were heretics.

[/QUOTE]I follow the teachings of the Church with which I agree. I'm not here to please you, Anam, so if you disagree please have the decency to be cordial about it.

I do not disagree with your desire to become a part of the Catholic Church, but I do disagree with your continually pontificating and presenting the teachings of the Church as if they were a hammer to bludgeon people into submission and not a means of leading people to God. I may not be practicing but I still love my Church and my God. It breaks my heart when I see and hear those who consider her their private domain and wish to exclude everyone who doesn't fit into their neat little rules and regulations. "And he said, 'Woe also to you scholars of the law! You impose on people burdens hard to carry, but you yourselves do not lift one finger to touch them.'...'Woe to you, scholars of the law! You have taken away the key of knowledge. You yourselves did not enter and you stopped those trying to enter." Luke 11:47 & 52.

If you find my tone offensive, thats life young man. Maybe you need to examine your own writings sometime to be sure you avoid doing the same to others? I have been reading your posts for quite some time and often find your tone offensive as well. I think at least one other poster on here as kindly suggested that you would learn more about the Catholic Faith, East and West, if you would ask questions rather than pontificate on things you don't know what you are talking about. You aren't even a catechumen, yet you would lecture lifelong Catholics about their Church??? Humility is a virtue and you are sadly in need of some.

anamchristi

Dear anamchristi:

Amen, brother.

I am sitting here reading your last post. I've just finished reading two passages from Romans: Chapter 14, verse 13

". . . let us no longer judge one another, but rather resolve never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother." (NAB)

and Chapter 15, verse 2:

". . . let each of us please our neighbor for the good, for building up." (NAB)

I believe that we all need more patience. Many sincere people can disagree and be on different paths than our own. I like to leave judgments to God and his appointed representatives. I've even expressed that thought in prayer: I'm glad God is God and I'm glad He's the One to sort it all out. I sleep better. I guess it's because the more I learn the more I realize I've got so far to go.

Somehow we've got to be Simon of Cyrene to each other. We've got to pick each other up and encourage each other. The rest of the world does a good enough job of trying to destroy us all; we don't need to do it to each other. We've also got to share our gifts and insights with each other. I welcome your seminary background. Thanks for sharing.

BOB

Anam,

I had a really nasty reply posted out (and it was good) but upon reading Theophan's post, I have deleted it.

I have thought about your post, and your analysis of my posts is pretty accurate. I will try to listen more and pontificate less. Thank you for pointing out what I need to improve on and God bless you.

ChristTeen287

Christ Teen,

That took much courage to say and your Christianity shone through in your reply!

God be with you!

Brian

I was received in the Greek Orthodox Church in Theophany 2001. In a month, I celebrate 2 years as a "Catholic in communion with Constantinople." I was previously a Latin Catholic, and fiercely loyal to Rome, but one very holy Orthodox priest changed my mind. A book that really made me rethink my position was "Two Paths," by Michael Whelton (Regina Orthodox Press), as well as listening to people like Frank Schaeffer.

I disagree with anyone who would say that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are merely the same thing, either with or without the pope. Our churches have significant theological and ecclesiological differences, and we are not living in the real world if we ignore that.

It is sad that the Orthodox and Catholics are separated, and I think all we can do is to love each other, show true Christian understanding to one another, and pray for unity to come!

Dear ChristTeen287:

I don't know your age, but you seem to have much knowledge, whether good or poor, whether accurate or inaccurate. Because of some experiences in my own life when I was a teen, I used to believe that I needed to have all the answers and to give all the information to others.

How prideful I was.

But the Lord took me over a rollercoaster set of experiences where I learned that I needed others and I needed to share the gifts I had, but with humility and for the purpose of building up and encouraging, not for beating anyone over the head. Four times I teetered near the brink of bankruptcy. Ten years ago I was injured on the job and spent three years learning to walk and do simple things like tie my own shoes. But the Lord is patient with even tough cases like me. I was picked up by my spiritual director and confessor, by physical therapists, and by some college professors who encouraged me to take classes so that I'd take my mind off the constant pain of my injuries. I learned.

There are people who are hurting out there. There are people who hurt because somehow they cannot seem to measure up to the strict demands of the Gospel--or so they think. My profession puts me in contact with hundreds of these people each year. This contact has made me sensitive to the needs of others. While I may drive myself to strictly adhere to the teachings of Christ as best I can with His help and His grace, I also must pick up others and bind their wounds--like the Good Samaritan. Let the Lord look into motives behind actions. I'll continue to work on picking up those I come across who seem to be hurt, broken, wounded, or whatever.

May the Lord bless your growth in faith, and life, and spiritual understanding.

BOB

P.S.: To Anamchristi

The first sentence in your most recent post seems to me to indicate that you are hurting for some reason or reasons. If you want to vent, send me an email.

BOB

anamchristi,

Now, I will apologize to begin with, if you feel it is necessary, but I must comment.

I disagree with you, it is our business to know your religious affiliation, how else can we weigh what you say.

When a non-catholic expounds on something of catholicism, it is only right to know where they are coming from.

And to know that you are a self described "fallen away Byzantine Catholic and former seminarian" tells us a lot about where you are coming from and lets us put your comments in perspective.

I know you most likely won't agree with me and will be upset but its a fact of life to weigh someone else's opinions by understanding their perspective and where they are in life.

Just as you want to do to ChristTeen287 by his newness to the faith and his age.

Your brother in Christ,
David

I realize that black and white Truth is not popular in this relativistic age; but there IS black and white truth. Any "christian" claimimg to condone homosexual behaviour, extramarital sex, abortion etc. stand in direct opposition to Christ, the Church, Scripture, and the Fathers.

Read the gospels and give me an instance where Jesus condoned sinful behaviour. He was quick to forgive, but NEVER condoned it. Was St.Paul being "narrow-minded" or "bigoted" in Romans 1 when referencing homosexual behaviour? Jesus, Paul, all the apostles called sin, sin. We should never condemn; but we CANNOT condone behaviour we know to be sinful. We can't hide behind "don't judge" in not condemning sin.

Also, in reply to something that was said previous; we CAN know the mind of G-d. Read the Scripture. Claiming ignorance of G-d's ordinances is willful ignorance. G-d has revealed Himself to us. Let's not lie and claim we don't know what G-D expects from us.

Columcille

dear CT287

Ditto to what Brian said!

Not to diminish your glory/grace by praising you for your humility, but it certainly is an example to all of us - old, young, and inbetween.

Good on you!!! And Glory to God!

Herb

ps: don't you have a birthday coming up any day now? (and right/rite to wheels that are concomitant thereunto?)

However........... As Byzantine Catholic or Orthodox Christians we can never become like fundamentalist Protestants and put our own biases into our reading of Scripture or become literalists. Our God is more merciful then a father or mother and cannot be limited!!! What a realization that is!!! I have found in the Christian East that there is a greater emphasis on Mercy (not neglecting ascesis of course!)

As we sing during the time of Pascha
"How Great is our God!!!!!!!!!"

Peace,
Brian in Sacramento

I'm not putting my own biases on Scripture. The Church confirms my statements.

Columcille

Jeff,

I read with interest your comments on Whelton's book. Several years ago when I read it, I was a recently Romanized evangelical who found in its pages some compelling arguments: and suddenly I thought I may not have done sufficient homework before becoming Catholic.

However, the plaintiff always sounds convincing until the defendant is given a chance to reply. Upon further investigation (and in many questions before and since), I concluded that if one chooses one's confession strictly based upon the force of reasoned arguments and historical facts, Latin scholarship and the Roman Bishop's claim to being the "first among equals" always prevails.

Still, my foray into OCA-style orthodoxy (and I became a catechumen for awhile) exposed me to a spirituality and liturgy and theology that took hold of my heart (and mind!) and of which I can't let go. So I returned to communion with the Pope, and embraced the Byzantine rite. I am grateful to enjoy the benefits of both traditions.

Frankly, I wouldn't expend too much energy maximizing our differences. While the Roman Bishop sometimes seems to suffer a "my way or the highway" reputation among the orthodox faithful, I take hope in his humility toward the east and the practical encouragement he has given for Eastern Catholics to return to their traditions.

Sure, there are some differences, but with you, I pray for the renewed fulfillment of Jesus' high priestly prayer, "that they may be one."

With brotherly affection,
Robert

Thank you all for your replies. I respect each and every one of you, whether or not we're on the same side of an argument.

Herb,

Yes, I do have a birthday coming up. January 2nd. What a good memory you have!

ChristTeen287

You have a Blessed Feastday- the Repose of our Holy Father, St Seraphim of Sarov and of St Sylvester, Pope of Rome

Look-

http://www.oca.org/pages/dwp/dwp.asp?dayid=102

Thank you Brian. Perhaps my New Year's resolution will be to make those descriptions more apparent in my life.

Have a happy New Year!

ChristTeen287