www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Catholics attending Orthodox services

I recently came across this:
From the Appendix of Excerpts for the application of the decisions of Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican concering ecumenical matters.

N. 50 Catholics may be allowed to attend Orthodox liturgical wervices if they have reasonable grounds, e.e. arising out of public office or function, blood relationships, frienshimps, desire to be better informed, etc. In such cased there is nothing against their taking part in the common responses, huymns, and actions of the Church in which they are guests. Receiving Holy Communiion, however, will be governed by what is laid down abouve , nr 42 and 44.
N. 47 A Catholic who occaisionally, for reasons set out below, attends the Holy Liturgy (Mass) on a Sunday or holy day of obligation in an Orthodox Church is not then bound to assist at Mass in a Catholic Church, It is likewise a good thing if on such days Catholics who for just reasons cannot go to Mass in their won Church, attend the Holy Liturgy of their separated Oriental brethern, if this is possible.

I got this quote out of On Mixed Marrages ststement on the implementation of the Apostolic Letter on Mixed Marriages published by St Paul Books and Media.

First is this still on the books or has it been superceeded by somthing else? I know it seems maybe to be too legalistic but thats part of my western upbringing that I need to get rid of

Any help will be appriciated

Yours in Christ
Ted


[This message has been edited by theodore perkoski (edited 07-24-2001).]

As I understand it, that is still the case. Catholics can fulfill the Sunday obligation at an Orthodox church. I believe that Eastern Catholics are encouraged to fulfill that obligation at an Orthodox church, if there is no Eastern church and there are RC and Orthodox churches both present in the area. Now I cant remember where I read this, but it was a recent declaration. (Oh for the day when we can share in Jesus with our Orthodox brethren on their home turf!)

Interesting!

On more than one occasion, a Byzantine Catholic priest friend (not the same person each time) has instructed me not to approach him for Holy Communion when I had mentioned that I attended an Orthodox Church for Liturgy the previous Sunday but not also a Catholic liturgy. I try not to go to confession to priest friends, so I did not receive...

"First is this still on the books or has it been superceeded by somthing else? I know it seems maybe to be too legalistic but thats part of my western upbringing that I need to get rid of.."

It has been superceded. I brought the exact same paragraphs to my RC pastor almost two years ago on behalf of a group in our parish that wanted to attend the Divine Liturgy at the GOC in Houston and celebrate the Feast of the Assumption/Dormition with our Orthodox friends. My pastor asked me to check if it was still the policy and I emailed Fr. Ron Roberson (the Orthodox/Catholic authority at the NCCB [now USCCB]) and he provided me with the updated version that makes the waiving of the Sunday obligation one of pastoral discretion. In short, there is no longer a "blank check" permission for Catholics to fulfill their Sunday obligation by attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy.

So, we attended Mass and the Divine Liturgy. Later, a deacon at our parish told me that dispensations from the Sunday obligation are also within the powers imparted to a deacon.

Hope this helps. If per chance I can still find the documentation that Fr. Roberson sent me, I will forward it to you.

In Awesome Three.

[This message has been edited by Latin Lurker (edited 07-24-2001).]

For Eastern Christians, the 'obligation' is to sanctify the Lord's Day. For us, that means either Liturgy on Sunday morning, but also Vespers on Saturday evening. (You can miss "Sunday Liturgy" if you have a legitimate reason; Vespers is the alternative.)

Going to an Orthodox Church means that a person has participated in Divine Liturgy.

I don't understand the perspective ofthe Byzantine Catholic priests you mentioned in this. It's like saying: if you went "there!", you somehow have done a 'no-no' and can't come to Liturgy and communion. This is not what the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches says. I think the underlying principle is: Sunday is to be sanctified; go to pray among our peoples -- including the Orthodox.

The alternative is: don't go to church at all if you can't go to the Byzantine Catholic Church. How dumb is that?

Uniting one's self in prayer with the Lord is our obligation, both on Sundays and ALWAYS. If, for Byzantine Catholics, the unity comes about at an Orthodox parish, at least one has fulfilled the 'obligation' to participate in public worship. If the Byzantine priest can't (or doesn't) appreciate this, then do what you can to keep him happy, but do what is best for your soul. And keep your mouth shut. And pray!

Blessings!

How do Orthodox priests feel about Catholics communing at Orthodox churches? I would imagine that it enrages them. Do they welcome it or are we doing it secretly?

Marshall

[This message has been edited by Marshall (edited 07-25-2001).]

The Orthodox Church requires that anyone approaching the Chalice must be an Orthodox Christian in good standing and fully participating in the sacramental life of the Orthodox Church (including Confession). The priest is supposed to question anyone approaching for Holy Communion that he doesn't recognize, or believes is not Orthodox. If there are situations that Catholics are receiving Holy Communion in an Orthodox church, it's due to the laxity of the priest and is not the norm.

The Orthodox do not invite Catholics to recieve communion and therefore respectful Catholics do not knowingly violate this practice.

However, in certain locales where Catholic and Orthodox communtieis have a strong and common social and cultural tie suggesting a single community, the canonical norms are sometimes not observed. This would not be the case for most Anglophone Americans.

K.

Dear Friends,

It was Metropolitan Andrew Sheptytsky himself who encouraged Eastern Catholics to attend the Liturgy in Orthodox Churches even when a Roman Catholic Church was available.

As Dr. John has said on a number of occasions, we ought to worship within the context of our spirituality which is one we share with the Orthodox.

Alex

Alex,

Of course, int he Metropolitian's situation, the Orthodox and Catholic services & sermon were in the same language while the Roman Mass and semon would have unintelligable!

K.

sometimes a cigar is just a cigar

Dear Kurt,

Actually, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church adopted modern Ukrainian while the Ukrainian Catholics still used Church Slavonic until 1970!

And Latin was a very popular subject among Ukrainians. For example, the "lingua franca" of the Kyivan Academy was Latin. All my uncles knew Latin grammar and had no problems following the Tridentine Mass without a translation. This was one of the historic charges brought by the Russians against the Ukrainians - that they know Latin too well, and that was an "heretical" language!

The thing is there were many opponents to this policy of Metropolitan Andrew's.

Ukrainian prayerbooks published by the Basilian and Redemptorist Fathers openly warned Ukrainian CAtholics that they MUST attend a Catholic Church of whatever Rite, as long as it was a Catholic and not Orthodox Church.

In Western Ukraine, "Latinization" meant "Polonization" in the same breath.

Metropolitan Andrew, himself of mixed Polish and Ukrainian aristocratic ancestry, wanted to avoid the pull of the dominant Polish influence in his time toward the Latin Church - and Polonization.

For example, my wife's family and others got better employment (or even employment at all) once they had their baptismal certificates altered to read that they were baptized in the "Roman Rite." I saw my wife's grandfather's certificate after his death and viewed this with some horror.

So it was, in fact, an issue that was more than just being at home in familiar spiritual-cultural surroundings. It had to do with cultural life and death.

Alex

[This message has been edited by Orthodox Catholic (edited 07-25-2001).]

Dr. John, I am sure that their reaction was not for what I *did* do (attend an Orthodox church) but for what I did *not* do (fulfill my obligation to attend the Liturgy in a Catholic church). I would hesitate to call these particular priests Latiniaks, as they are products of the seminary in Pittsburgh and were ordained within the past 6 years.

Nevertheless, I am more cautious now about what I say and to whom, even my friends.

Rich the priest was wrong if I read you acurately.
Catholics can go to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy and they have fulfilled their obligation of Sunday Worship.(At least that is what the Code of Canon Law says for the Latin Church) I will look up the pertainent Code for the Eastern Churches and let you know.
Hang in there. Clarify the point with your Bishop.

Stephanos

I think that there is a very legitimate distinction to be made between what the 'books say' and 'what the people do'.

For me, the blood is the blood. (No offense to the Latin/Western pilgrims; give us a chance to clear this up among the cradles first.)


We'll do what is 'appropriate' both from the lay and clerical perspectives. The laws, etc. come second.

Were I (Byzantine Catholic) to die, would my family's Greek Orthodox clergyman be 'disinvited' to offer prayers at my bier? Don't think so. Would ANY Byzantine Catholic priest step in and say: "back off!" to the Orthodox clergyman? Don't think so. Would any of the people object to this? Don't think so. Is it Constantinopolitan family? You bet your a**. Get in the way? DON'T! You have no idea of what might befall you for interfering in 'what is right'.

I have a Russian Orthodox close friend (OCA) who has asked me to ensure that everything is 'done right' when he dies. (He has a serious illness.) Will I be there? You bet. Will everything be done in High Russian protocol? There is NO question. Will the OCA clergy listen to me? There is no question since they will realize that I am setting up everything according to the books. Will it bother them that I'm a Byzantine Catholic? Nope. They already know.

So: do many of us cradles worry about the canonical stuff? Yeah, but........ Do the cradle clergy worry about this stuff? Yeah, but....... The big deal is that we do EVERYTHING that is needed for the service of the soul; and who cares who is doing it. And if the 'grave watch' is done by Russian OCAs and Byzantine Catholics and Roman Catholics, then who cares AS LONG AS THE RITUAL OF STANDING BY THE GRAVE is done. We are sending our brother home to God.

Since I do work with people who are living with HIV/AIDS, I've had a number of circumstances of Eastern folks who are on the brink. I've had a number of priests (Catholic and Orthodox) who have said: "If there is one our "ours" who is sick, call me day or night and I will come." The priest will anoint; the priest will pray; the priest will stay with the person. And when the person has gone home to God without perhaps being a part of a parish, these priests have said that they will give the blessings and bless the grave of the departed. Whenever a priest lets me know that he will be there, I get the shivers and goosebumps because I KNOW that the soul of the person is being served. And I tremble - and I'm not being theatrical here - because I am clearly aware of the tremendous power of the Church in standing by the soul of the departed. Orthodox? Catholic? Oriental Orthodox?

Soul of the departed. What is important?

Blessings!

>>>If there are situations that
Catholics are receiving Holy Communion in an Orthodox church, it's due to the laxity of the priest and is not the norm.<<<

I love it when people try to be more holy than their bishops. Did it ever occur to you that this is a matter which falls under the purview of episcopal oikonomia, and that bishops can, and do, with good cause allow non-Orthodox Christians (particularly Eastern Catholics, but also to some extent non-Chalcedonians) to receive communion? That this situation is common, indeed unavoidable in some parts of the world (the Middle East and the United States in particular) because of either the peculiarities of civil law or the prevelance of intermarriage, or both? The exercise of oikonomia requires every bishop to determine whether following a particular rule is helpful or harmful in a particular situation. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, and if it comes down to a matter of not extending the chalice and losing a soul, or extending it and saving one, the choice is rather simple, is it not? Now, perhaps, you see why we pray for our bishops, and why so many of the Fathers, when asked to serve as one, tried desperately to refuse. For the bishop is responsible not only for his own soul, but for the souls of all those entrusted to his care, whether these are formally part of the Orthodox Church or not.