www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Pope to Return Saints Relics

I don't object to the relics going back to the Orthodox Church, I object to them going to Turkey. Surely, there is a safer place than that to keep them. I think one of the things for which many Catholics have criticized popes since and including Paul VI, has been their ecumania. They want unity - a good thing and there's nothing wrong with that. But they want unity to the point of not considering what a united church would become. Critics say unity that compromises very real differences in doctrine and faith is not a unity worth the price. That's not a problem with the Orthodox, but if the current pope starts sending gifts to the Protestants, it might be cause for concern.

ECUMENICAL PATRIARCH BARTHOLOMEW ARRIVES TOMORROW

VATICAN CITY, NOV 25, 2004 (VIS) - Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople Bartholomew I will arrive in Rome tomorrow for a two-day visit during which, in an ecumenical celebration in St. Peter's Basilica on Saturday, November 27, he will receive from Pope John Paul the relics of Saints John Chrysostom and Gregory Nazianzus, Bishops and Doctors of the Church.

Accompanying the patriarch on the plane from Turkey will be Cardinal Roger Etchegaray and Archbishop Edmond Farhat, apostolic nuncio in Turkey. On the return trip to Istanbul, to celebrate the November 30 feast of St Andrew, patron of the ecumenical patriarchate, Bartholomew I will be accompanied by a Holy See delegation comprised of Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, Bishop Brian Farrell, Archbishop Farhat and Msgr. Johan J. Bonny.

Among those who will be at the airport tomorrow to welcome the patriarch will be Cardinal Kasper, Bishop Farrell and Msgr. Fortino, president, secretary and under-secretary of the council, Cardinal Francesco Marchisano, archpriest of the Vatican Basilica, Archbishop Piero Marini, master of papal liturgical ceremonies and Msgr. Renato Boccardo, secretary of the Pontifical Council for Social Communications. Also present will be the first counselor of the Turkish embassy to the Holy See, and the ambassadors to the Holy See from Greece and Cyprus.

Patriarch Bartholomew and his delegation will reside at the Vatican's Domus Sanctae Marthae. A welcome dinner offered by the pontifical council will inaugurate the visit to Rome.

According to a background document from the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, Patriarch Bartholomew I met John Paul II in Rome on June 29, 2004, at which time he invited the Pope to Istanbul, and also asked if the relics of the saints could be returned from the Vatican, where they were kept in St. Peter's Basilica, to the See of Constantinople. An exchange of letters between the Pope and the Patriarch followed, and this week's encounter is the result of that correspondence.

"The handing over of the relics," says the communique, "is a deep encouragement to walk the path of unity: the mortal remains of the two Saints, Patriarchs of Constantinople, who did everything possible to safeguard unity between East and West, venerated in their land of origin, welcomed with great honors in the Church of Rome, which for many centuries has preserved and venerated them, walk once again on the path to the East, thanks to this gesture of spiritual sharing which nourishes and fortifies communion between the Sees of Peter and Constantinople."

Pope John Paul has asked that the relics be placed in two crystal shrines and enclosed in precious alabaster reliquaries. When they arrive in Istanbul on Saturday, they will be placed in a chapel of the patriarchate and, on the feast of St. Andrew, they will be permanently placed in the patriarchal church of St. George.

Saturday's ceremony in St. Peter's will be transmitted live via television and will be seen in the United States and Greece, among others.
CON-UC/RELICS:VISIT BARTHOLOMEW I/... VIS 041125 (500)

A year ago this past April, my wife and I were blessed to attend Holy Mass in St. Peter's at the altar of the relics of St. Gregory the Theologian. The mass was celebrated by two priest friends of mine and was situated next to the incorrupt relics of Blessed John XXIII and St. Josaphat the Martyr. St. John Chrysostom's relics, however, were situated behind a closed iron gate and were basically inaccessible to pilgrims, who could only view them from a distance.

While I understand the signifigance of the return of these Holy Relics, I am also saddened by their loss to the many pilgrims of Rome, which include Orthodox Christians. (While visiting the site of the martyrdom of St. Paul and the Three Fountains, we entered the chapel above his prison cell and were greeted with the sacred tones of a Romanian Orthodox Divine Liturgy! It turns out that it was a celebration for a large Orthodox parish pilgrimage to Rome.)

If anything, couldn't the pope have sent them to one of the local Orthodox congregations of Rome? He could also have built a shrine for Orthodox Christians in Rome to house these relics. Turkey is not only remote, but also hostile territory. My sadness is that the population that will now be able to venerate these holy relics of two of the greatest saints/theologians of Byzantium has dwindled to a mere handful. Perhaps some of our Orthodox bretheren could petition Patriarch Bartholemew to find a more suitable location for a Christian pilgrimage site than Turkey?

My two cents -

Gordo

ByzanTN and Gordo,

These are exactly my worries that I expressed in my last couple of posts. Thank goodness y'all have enough energy to explain these worries; I only offered a somewhat flippant and nonchalant "I know, right?"

Logos Teen

Here is another recent article.

Date: 2004-11-25

Return of Relics to Rekindle Catholic-Orthodox Dialogue

Event Will Help Bridge the Gap, Says Archimandrite

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 25, 2004 (Zenit.org).- Theological dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches is expected to resume after the relics of Sts. Gregory Nazianzen and John Chrysostom are returned to the patriarch of Constantinople.

On Saturday, John Paul II is scheduled to turn over the relics of the doctors of the Eastern Church to Patriarch Bartholomew I, in an ecumenical ceremony in St. Peter's Basilica. The ecumenical patriarch of Constantinople, "first among equals" among the Orthodox, will be in Rome for a two-day visit.

"For us, the significance of this event is very great," said Archimandrite Ignatios Sotiriadis of the Greek Orthodox Church, in statements today to Vatican Radio.

"The return of these relics means that one more bridge is created between the sister Churches of Constantinople and Rome, between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox," he said. The Patriarch of Constantinople is in Istanbul, Turkey.

According to the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, when Patriarch Bartholomew I met John Paul II in Rome last June 29, he invited the Pope to Istanbul and asked if the relics of the saints could be returned from the Vatican to the See of Constantinople. The relics have been kept in St. Peter's Basilica.

An exchange of letters between the Pope and the patriarch followed, and this week's meeting will be a result of that correspondence.

"The handing over of the relics," the pontifical council said in a statement, "is a profound encouragement to walk the path of unity: the mortal remains of the two saints, patriarchs of Constantinople, who did everything possible to safeguard unity between East and West, venerated in their land of origin, welcomed with great honors in the Church of Rome, which for many centuries has preserved and venerated them, walk once again on the path to the East, thanks to this gesture of spiritual sharing which nourishes and fortifies communion between the Sees of Peter and Constantinople."

John Paul II has asked that the relics be enclosed in precious alabaster reliquaries.

When they arrive in Istanbul later on Saturday, they will be stored in a chapel of the patriarchate and, on the feast of St. Andrew, Nov. 30, they will be permanently placed in the patriarchal Church of St. George.

Accompanying the patriarch on the plane from Turkey will be Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, and Archbishop Edmond Farhat, apostolic nuncio in Turkey.

On the return trip to Istanbul, to celebrate next Tuesday's feast of St. Andrew, patron of the ecumenical patriarchate, Bartholomew I will be accompanied by a Holy See delegation that will include Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity.

Regarding Catholic-Orthodox relations, Archimandrite Sotiriadis said: "The problem that remains to be surmounted is 'Uniatism.'" This expression refers to Eastern-rite Catholics who live in Eastern European lands of Orthodox majority.

"This problem must be surmounted, but it has been decided that ecumenical dialogue, like theological dialogue, will be resumed after the handing over of these famous relics to the ecumenical patriarch and after the feast of St. Andrew," the archimandrite said.

"Discussions will begin with the Petrine ministry and then the other questions will be addressed," he added. "I believe that our religious leaders, ecclesiastics, our superiors of the Churches have yet to sit down at a round table, perhaps behind closed doors, to discuss a speedy process of rapprochement of the Churches.

"From my point of view, there have been important gestures, photographs have been taken, and gifts have been exchanged. Now, there is need for assessment and also for a more spiritual ecumenism, namely, a grass-roots ecumenism. Now, peoples, priests and parishes and individuals must talk among themselves. It is necessary to become friends and not to speak as diplomats, but as brothers."

The archimandrite said he believes that a future of unity passes through the path traced "by all our Orthodox theologians and all our historians, as well as by famous theologians of the West, of the Catholic Church, such as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who speaks about a unity or reunification according to the historical models of the first millennium."

I understand that His-All Holiness invited every other Local Orthodox Church to sent representatives on this momentous event. Is anyone aware if such representatives are making an appearance?

Anton

Hopefully our communal fear of Turkey in not recognizing the "value" of these holy relics to Christendom is allayed in part by the presence of secular officials of the countries "interested" in their proper custody and safekeeping.

Note that the ambassadors of Turkey, Greece, and Cyprus to the Holy See are bearing witness to the translation of the holy relics and in the presence of the Apostolic Nuncio to Turkey.

While this event "strictly" should be a religious affair, a tri-partite involvement of the countries of Turkey, Greece, and Cyprus somehow lends "seriousness" to the event.

Turkey and its government have to "honor" such an international enterprise to preserve Turkey's standing as a member of the family of nations and its EU aspirations.

Soon we will see!

Amado

I'm surprised at the number of Catholics who are quite against handing the Holy Relics over to "schismatic Patriarchs."

I was speaking with an acquiantance who is presently at seminary at the North American College (specifically, the Angelicum) in Rome, and he said that many of his confreres feel the same way he does (cf. the opinion in Paragraph 1).

In fact, he related to me that all the seminarians were given free tickets to attend the ceremony, but that he and many others refused to go. I asked about the superiors at the College and he said that some are opposed while others are in support of the transferring of the relics. This came as quite a surprise to me since the seminaries of Rome are often known for, err, shall we say, their "progressive" attitudes towards the Church in general and ecuemnical relations in specifics.

Logos Teen

I'll say it one more time---After watching the 'Transferal of Relics' on EWTN: I'd trade our patriarch any day for John Paul II !!!

In His Holy Name,
Anonymous Monk (*wink*)

Dear Forum participants,


Did anyone watch the ceremony on EWTN? Since I live in the Midwest, it was broadcast live at 4:00 am . That is a little too early, even for this monk! However, I did see the last half-hour of the rebroadcast at 3:00 pm EST(2:00 CST).

The part I enjoyed the most was simply seeing how the ritual incorporated aspects of both East and West. This was particularly evident when two deacons - one dressed in a Latin dalmatic the other in his sticharion and orarion - incensed the relics of the Holy Fathers. It was amusing to note that each deacon swung his censer/thurible in the manner of their respective churches. [ side note - our abbey runs a seminary and the student servers often like to swing the censer with one straight-arm motion much to the consternation of the master of ceremonies who terms this maneuver "Anglican" style - ! ]

I hope some of you kind posters also got a chance to view this historic event.

PAX

I didn't see it either, since the local cable company has decided there are not enough Catholics in the area to bother with carrying EWTN. One thing you do have to give the Anglicans, they do have "style." They are the original people of good taste and great music, and they really know how to do ritual.

Would the Orthodox Christians in Rome have appreciated this gesture, or would it perhaps have been perceived as patronizing?

I'd hate to think we would do something to "preserve the relics" that could be perceived as controlling the situation to our advanatage.

In the long run, I think the return of relics will work toward unity in Christ.

This truly saddens me if that is the case!!!! I did not know that this triumphalistic spirit still existed.

Dear Teen,

I find it hard to believe there are that many Catholics against the translation of the relics,
especially those with ties to the Vatican who are aware of JPII's commitment to dialogue with the Orthodox. I'm sure this wasn't a decision made without much thought and prayer.

As for sending the relics to Constantinople, i.e. Turkey, I think there are those in the Phanar who would suffer martyrdom before allowing these relics to be desecrated, which is good enough for me.

Bill

St John was Archbishop of Constantinople; that is where his relics belong. I would not worry about Turkey, which has bending over backwards to meet European standards of justice to qualify for membership in the EU; indeed, personally I hope they make it, and become a sign to Muslims and Europeans alike that an Islamic nation need not be despotic.
As for Roman seminarians being progressive and ecumenical, in the last 20 years much has changed, and the ultramontanists are more dominant than the ecumenists. This is no doubt better than the modernists who used to run wild in the streets of Rome [okay, it being Rome, maybe "strolling pleasantly" is a more appropriate term], but has its own problems, mostly of ignorance rather than ill will...
-Daniel