www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Pope to Return Saints Relics

Frankly, I think this attitude is shared by many Roman Catholics. I've seen it written here and elsewhere that Rome no longer thinks the Orthodox are in schism and that Rome never thought the Orthodox were heretics. However, the standard opinion amongst conservative and traditional Catholics is that the Orthodox are definitely in schism and probably heretics. Most have never heard of the Balamand Agreement.

Accordingly, I've heard some complaining about the return of the relics.

Jennifer- yes that is true, and is balanced by the fact that the Orthodox Churches are full of people who think Roman Catholics are quite definitely heretics, as you well know from your sojourn on that other forum. Thank God wiser souls prevail for the most part in the hierarchies.
And Garrett, the North American College and the Angelicum are two distinct institutions, the former being the Roman campus of the American bishops, and the latter the Dominican theologiate in Rome.
-Daniel, dreaming of unity

It's different for the Orthodox though because they have taught definitively anything about the Roman Catholic Church therefore leaving it to individual Orthodox to reach their own conclusion.

First of all, the two propositions - Rome thinks X and conservatives think Y - are not mutually exclusive; both can, in principle, be accurate. But I am not sure that you are reading Vatican statemetns documents with a sufficient regard for nuance. I have noticed when you have raised the issue, e.g., on the DCF forum, you don't allow properly allow for it in your questions.

Is this right? Are the laity empowered within Orthodoxy to draw conclusions on charges of heresy?

Is this right? Are the laity empowered within Orthodoxy to draw conclusions on charges of heresy? [/QB][/QUOTE]

As far as I know, the Orthodox Church has never taught definitively that there is no grace in the Roman Catholic Church. My experience has been that there is a divergence of opinion amongst American Orthodox. I've yet to meet any Orthodox who believe the Roman Catholic Church is a "sister Church" of the Orthodox Church (so much for Balamand on the Orthodox side). I've met Orthodox who believe there is no grace in Roman Catholicism but most appear to be 'agnostic' about whether the RCC has grace.

My intention here is not to nitpick but to promote accuracy about what each side really thinks.

What the "Catholic side" thinks is found in the statements of the Magesterium, your interests notwithstanding. I don't doubt that, for many Catholics, the Orthodox are very much off the radar. And they have very little awareness of what is taught about the Orthodox, apart from knowing Catholics and Orthodox are not in communion. Asked if that constitutes a "schism" they will likely and correctly say yes. I would be interested in supporting material on your hearing that "Rome no longer thinks the Orthodox are in schism". It is not nit-picking, but crucial to a correct assessment of attitudes of the faithful to understand what people are actually saying.

Why on earth do you think that would interest me? Why does it interest you to bring it to my attention?

Opinion is not conclusion.
Just as the opinions of Catholic "conservatives" are not the conclusion of the Catholic church.

Your writing is at odds with your intention. At best you are providing some information about the opinions of a limited number of people, sampled unscientifically. (The existence of such opinions is, btw, well-known around here). What you are writing, thus has nothing to do with an "accurate" portrayal the "thinking" of "each side".

Your point is well made. My issue, as I have said, is not with the return of the relics to the Patriarch of Constantinople, but rather with their safekeeping under the gaze of the Turkish government. (I still think that Orthodox and Catholic Christians would have more of an opportunity to venerate these relics if they resided in Rome rather than in Istanbul.)

With that said, however, I was glad to read that some of the relics were kept in Rome, so that opportunity will still exist.

As to the comments mentioned by others on the reaction of some to the return of various relics to "schismatic" Patriarchs, I think within Roman Catholicism the pendulum is swinging back to a more faithful expression of Roman Catholicism and, as a result, anything that smacks of disloyalty to the Pope of Rome is regarded as suspect. Many have suffered under the haze of "collage catechesis" (anyone remember pasting cut outs from magazines together instead of learning the creed?) wrought by others and are celebrating a return to classical Catholic orthodoxy with great vigor.

Since it is a relatively new experience for some (and many have suffered persecution for it), their responses may be somewhat analogous to writing with a non-preferred hand. Until one gains comfort and proficiency with using the other hand, the experience of writing will be uncomfortable for them (and for observers as well!) and the handwriting will appear childish, stark and somewhat extreme. Applying this to the new generation of faithful Catholics, once they gain comfort with their position and have fully assimilated it into their identity as Catholics, they will become more open to some of the subtleties, nuances and context that they were not aware of previously. One sees a similar reaction and gradual maturation process in converts to Orthodoxy and Catholicism as well.

I am hopeful that any "ultra-montanist" reaction (although I think this is an overstatement) will subside into an integral and dynamic Catholic orthodoxy, especially in view of the witness of "John Paul the Great" vis-a-vis the Orthodox churches.

Peace -

Gordo

I'm sorry, Daniel, I misspoke. My acquiantance, like all the American seminarians studying at the Angelicum, lives at the North American College.

If I may offer my two cents to the discussion...

I believe, regardless of what this Pope may say, that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are, indeed, in schism. I think it's unhealthy to deny this reality and detrimental to a true ecumenical spirit which must thrive if the two Churches are to reunite. I think the "false ecumenism," like saying the two Churches aren't in schism, has been harmful to the whole process.

The Orthodox rightly acknowledge that the two Churches are in schism. The Catholic Church has historically recognized this with the utmost clarity until quite recently, when there has arisen a pope or two who think otherwise. However much these men demand respect (and they do), especially with regard to their private theoligical opinions, John Paul II and his immediate predecessors have not, to my knowledge, spoken ex cathedra on this issue, and certainly their own views represent a stark contrast with what has been traditionally taught by the Church, and thusly deserve to be looked upon with a healthy amount of suspicion.

All this talk about "ultra-montanism" - - - isn't it ultra-montanist to place undue credence into every phrase the Pope utters, regardless of its content?

But these are simply my own views and I can't force anyone to believe as I do. To each his own.

Logos Teen

well, now that the return of the Relics is a done deal, I am hoping that things will improve dramatically for all of us in the Eastern Catholic community. for example, I am Russian Catholic, and the closest to that in Chattanooga is the OCA church which now has its own priest. it would be great to receive the Mysteries in their church. as it is now, and we all know, that's nigh unto impossible. relations between us and the Orthodox are at best delicate. I have visited the Greek Orthodox, and they have dropped hints about my coming over to them, and a couple of people were scandalized at my ecclesiastical situation, as if I had the mark of the Beast of the Apocalypse on my forehead. yes, I am hoping a lot over the return of the Relics, but even baby steps towards everyone involved recognizing that there are no second class Christians is no mean thing. as far as the Turks trying to end the Patriarchate in Constantinople, as the successors to the Porte are doing their darndest to part of Europe, it would be quite inconvenient for them to pull such a stunt. even Iran has sense enough not to go too far on its Christian minority. But to His Holiness, , great going

I wanted to be able to join this discussion a few days ago simply to rejoice in this event.

I'm not so much concerned with all the ins and outs; If God's people will let God, God will sort those out.

It seems, and I believe, that the Spirit is at work.

"The Church is One in spirit, but not in fact... history and hurt still dismember us" Iona liturgy.

The Church IS ONE IN FACT. The Church is not split. People may leave the Holy Catholic Church but that in no way affects her unity. Where the successor of St. Peter is, there is the Church.

Dear Jonn,

As a Greek Orthodox, I am very sorry about this.

Unfortunately, many of the laity are simply ignorant and not very well read OR open minded as to the ecclesiastical status of their Eastern brethren, and then others simply think all must convert.

If it makes you feel any better, I will relay a story about the typical type of ignorance of which I am referring to: My example involves an otherwise lovely woman and devoted mother I know whose family is very involved in GO church ministries on a national level, and should know better.....

I once mentioned something about the OCA, and she looked confused, as she did not know, apparently, that any other jurisdictions existed within American Orthodoxy. :

Then, as if a light bulb went off, she said "oh-- but they aren't accepted by our Archdiocese, are they???"

I then realized that she thought the OCA was the OCL (a paraclessial laity organization!)

So take heart, and educate others about your Eastern Catholic heritage and faith. Knowledge can be a great bridge to overcoming obstacles and prejudice within God's Church!

We cannot unite with that which we don't know anything about...whether as Orthodox of different jurisdictions or as Catholic and Orthodox!

Yours in Christ,
Alice

From JonnNightwatcher:

well, now that the return of the Relics is a done deal, I am hoping that things will improve dramatically for all of us in the Eastern Catholic community. for example, I am Russian Catholic, and the closest to that in Chattanooga is the OCA church which now has its own priest. it would be great to receive the Mysteries in their church. as it is now, and we all know, that's nigh unto impossible.


I've been thinking about this for a while. It seems that most people agree that unity will most likely start at the bottom with ordinary folk. What if a priest like the one at this OCA parish in Chattanooga just went ahead and communed our friend? Would that be so wrong?
I know this is not the official line. This priest's Bishop would surely not be able to give his blessing, but I'm just wondering what would happen if people who are fed up with the divisions that our hierarchs can't seem to fix just took matters into their own hands.

The Roman Catholic fiancee of a friend of mine was communed by the Greek Orthodox priest of his bride to be. It was done in full knowledge that he was RC.

Many years later, my girlfriend attributes this good will gesture to her husband's eventual conversion to Orthodoxy.

Sister Alice, I dont think a lot of Latin Catholics would see that as "good will"(myself included) nor his conversion as "great." Many would see that as proslytism. What would have been better is that both remained in their specific jurisdictions and lived in harmony together as an example to us all.
Stephanos I

PS Alice, I hope you also realize by now my great respect and admiration of the Orthodox. So please do not take my statement as a slam. I really dont like Denny's that much anyway lol.